Rabbi Sacks in Conversation with Imam Abdullah Antepli

Transcript

0:06 I’m sitting here in these wonderful surroundings

0:08of Duke University, speaking to Imam Abdullah Antepli,

0:13a figure of immense consequence,

0:19a genuine friend of Jews and of Israel

0:22whose taken Imams to study in Jerusalem,

0:26who is wrestling

0:28with the issues confronting Islam in the 21st Century,

0:32who is trying to build bridges with the Jewish community

0:36and to fight some of the opposition to those bridges.

0:39So please tell us a little of what you see

0:42as the big problems today,

0:44first, within the Muslim world.

0:45- Absolutely.

0:47One of my favourite Psalms is,

0:50when God says to [King] David “Shira Hashem shiur chadash”,

0:54“sing Me some new songs”.

0:56My own Midrash [explanation] to that commandment,

0:59that means partially, some of the old songs

1:01that we've been singing has been harmful.

1:04Some of the old songs that we've been singing

1:06is not necessarily pleasing God anymore.

1:08Some of those old songs have polarised us, poisoned us,

1:13pumped bias and stereotyped us.

1:15I think there's a similar voice from Sinai

1:18saying the same thing to the Jews

1:20and the Muslims of the 21st century,

1:23saying, sing some new songs because the existing situation

1:26is unacceptable.

1:27We are polarised.

1:29We only get along if we only just put

1:32all the elephants in the room, and never point out

1:35those elephants in the room.

1:37If I can be self-critical, I think the Muslim community,

1:40the way we experience the State of Israel

1:43and its impact on the Muslim community

1:46in the global Muslim imagination, had dire consequences

1:51in our ability to understand Judaism as religion

1:53and Jews as people.

1:55And some of our grievances might be

1:58legitimate or not legitimate.

2:00But unfortunately, as we are the victims of bias,

2:03as we are the victims of being represented

2:06by certain examples in our faith tradition

2:08which we don't feel comfortable, I think we should stop

2:11doing the same thing to the Jewish community,

2:14stop defining this entire tradition, five, six thousand years of

2:19wisdom by certain political conflicts in the 21st century.

2:23- Is there a problem, antisemitism in the Muslim world?

2:27- Absolutely, absolutely.

2:29Anyone who says otherwise is either too naive,

2:32blind, or flat out lying.

2:34I was a victim of that antisemitism.

2:37I often publicly called myself as a recovering antisemite,

2:42because if you allow hate come into your DNA

2:46as early on in your life, it becomes a lifelong struggle,

2:49to get that poison out of yourself.

2:51- You were born where?

2:53- I was born in the southeastern part of Turkey,

2:55and was not religious, very secular, nationalist,

2:58almost chauvanisticaily nationalist.

3:01The household, and the education that I received

3:03has made me believe that Judaism and Jews

3:06are irredeemably evil.

3:07And I spent, as a result, early years of my teenage years

3:11burning Israeli flags, as I reflect, it's so interesting

3:14doing what I'm doing right now. (laughing)

3:15If it is anything to recover from that past.

3:18Why? Because at the age of 12,

3:21the first book I read was the children's version

3:24of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

3:26It was in plain Turkish, translated,

3:28and free of charge given to me.

3:30The second book was Henry Ford's International Jew.

3:33- Oh my goodness.

3:34- And the third book was Mein Kampf.

3:35So before 15, before I met any Jew,

3:40in the context of 1980s, the first thing I knew

3:43about any international affairs

3:44was the Palestinian suffering.

3:47And that suffering is real.

3:49But if you try to define an entire community

3:52through the lenses of that kind of political propaganda,

3:56inevitably, you swallow hate.

3:59I always ask, there are two types of Islamophobia

4:02and two types of antisemitism.

4:04One of them is innocent, and a majority of people

4:06are innocent. But if you grew up in certain place,

4:09if you consume certain information about the world,

4:11inevitably you develop hate and negative views of other.

4:16But there are also intentional, deliberate evil people.

4:18People who printed, translated those literatures,

4:21and gave it to me free, they are not innocent people.

4:24There are people in the business of spreading hate.

4:26There are people in the business of

4:29dehumanising and character assassination

4:32to the Judaism and Islam in many different fronts.

4:34And it's so weird, Rabbi Sacks, that the antisemites

4:38of Muslims, and the Islamophobes

4:40within the Jewish community,

4:42they are in indirect partnership,

4:44they are in alliances, almost, both of them

4:46are helping each other, and trying to validate

4:48the monsterous image of our respected tradition

4:51vis a vis the innocent masks.

4:54- Tell me about the people you take

4:56to Jerusalem in the summer.

4:59- I believe,

5:01if any

5:03new song is possible, it's possible here.

5:06If there's a voice from Sinai saying to the

5:0921st century Jews and Muslims, model and exemplify,

5:12behave,

5:15manifest your ethical moral values in your relationships,

5:18if that's a moral responsibility, the Jews

5:20and Muslims of the United States and North America,

5:24that moral obligation is much stronger and higher.

5:27And if anything possible, it's possible here.

5:29So, when it's commanded, when it's possible,

5:32I believe Jews and Muslims can do better in America,

5:35in North America. - Yeah.

5:36- Much more so than the European Jews

5:38and European Muslims, because of all sorts of reasons.

5:41I don't want to overidealize American society but still,

5:44the civil liberties, the Jewish community in North America,

5:48the Muslim community in North America,

5:50we are in a position to model and exemplify

5:53what that new song would look like.

5:56And part of that - Do you find

5:57young Muslims are willing to sing that new song?

6:00- Many,

6:00many, many.

6:01It requires some sort of courageous leadership.

6:04It requires using some of your social equity

6:06and credibility in your own community.

6:09And it requires some sort of good. Most people

6:12believe with the eyes, they have to see it.

6:15Very few people can imagine.

6:17Very few people can look at piece of land

6:19and imagine a beautiful house there.

6:21They will only believe it once you built it.

6:23Therefore, dozens of Muslims and these are not

6:26fig leaf Muslims, they are credible,

6:29people who have standing in the Muslim community.

6:32So what we are trying to do with this programme

6:33in Jerusalem is,

6:35part of our ability to sing these new songs will require

6:39to unlearn what we learn about Judaism,

6:41Zionism and Israel.

6:43And, develop a respect, we don't have to agree.

6:46We don't have to compromise our loyalties.

6:48We don't have to,

6:49we don't have to become something other than who we are.

6:53But is there a power in which,

6:55at least we can understand the other side?

6:57Your Talmudic story of

6:59Rabbi calling from the heavens to his opponents,

7:02please come back, because without you, I mean nothing,

7:07is a very powerful story.

7:09So this is not an interfaith dialogue.

7:10It's a one way, dozens of Muslims spending

7:13a one year fellowship, 24 days in total in Jerusalem,

7:17can I understand Judaism as religion, Jews as people,

7:20Zionism as a form of

7:21ideology and nationalism and Israel as a state

7:25in its own context?

7:26Again, you don't have to agree, anything and everything.

7:29It's not about agreement, it's not about

7:31arriving into a consensus, but can I understand you

7:34in your own terminology?

7:35Can I not impose defining you through my own realities?

7:39Can I give you the basic decency of allowing you

7:43to define yourself as who you are?

7:45- Terrific.

7:47Well, continued blessing and success in your wonderful work.

7:51- Thank you, let's sing some new songs.

7:54- Agreed.

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