Our Journey with the Chief…

Sir David Frost: Hello, good evening, and welcome. 

Rabbi Sacks: What a privilege Sir David. 

Sir David: So am I, so am I. A faith question at the beginning, and then we'll go right back to the beginning.

Do you believe in God, or do you know there's a God? 

Rabbi Sacks: Well, you know, I think I know there's a God. The great news is, I think He believes in us, which is much more important than our believing in Him. 

Sir David: Actually, what's your first memory? How old were you? First thing you can ever remember?

Rabbi Sacks: Well, I'll tell you, for the first two years of my life, we lived together with my grandparents in a big, extended family in Seven Sisters Road opposite Finsbury Park. My late grandfather was sort of a, wasn't a professional rabbi, he was in the wine business, but he had his own synagogue. He actually owned it.

And, you know, our wonderful head of El Al was telling us, General Shkedy, about the Torah Scroll, which is our most holy object. And when we finished reading it, we wind it up and wrap it in its mantle. And as ‘Rabbi’ Frumkin's grandson, I was given the special role. My father used to lift me up when I was two years old, and I put the bells on the Torah Scroll. And that is my first memory, and I think, you know, if you've got grandchildren, lift them up and put the bells on, and your children may be grand Chief Rabbis as well. 

Sir David: When did you decide you'd like to be a rabbi? Was it slow, or was it sudden? 

Rabbi Sacks: It was very slow. I had already, we were already married, Elaine and I, already had a career teaching secular philosophy. And something, you know, just burned in me to get involved in Jewish life. So I was 25 before I started studying for the rabbinate.

Sir David: So you were on the road at that point. 

Rabbi Sacks: Yeah. 

Sir David: And that's fascinating. Fascinating. And how did you meet Elaine? 

Rabbi Sacks: Well, I think we have to share this fascinating piece of divine providence. Sir David and I went to the same college…

Sir David: We did.

Rabbi Sacks: in Cambridge, Gondel and Caius.

And because I did quite well in my first year's exams, they gave me a very special privilege for my second year, which was to spend that year in the rooms that you had as an undergraduate. The good news was they were magnificent rooms with huge wonderful French windows looking out on the croquet lawn. The bad news is I spent the whole year playing croquet and nearly failed my exams that year.

In my third year, a friend and I, a friend called Philip Skelker, who just joined us from Oxford - Philip became a head teacher, a very, very outstanding one - saw two young ladies who had just come up to Cambridge and we decided to invite them. 

And I did something for the first and last time in my life. I cooked a chicken.

Now, there's a Yiddish saying that goes, you know, about the little village shtetl in the 19th century - “If a poor man eats a chicken, one of them is ill.” I added my little rider to it, which is if Sacks has cooked the chicken, everyone is ill.

So the young lady who ate my chicken and survived was Elaine. And three weeks later I proposed to her and it was the best thing I've done in my entire life. 

Sir David: What would be your definition of love, human love? 

Rabbi Sacks: Well, love is giving. Love is forgiving.

Actually, we have this division of labour. I do the sinning and Elaine does the forgiving. But I think, you know, love between husband and wife, between parents and children, are the most sacred things in Judaism.

We know that every culture has a rule that says, ‘Do unto others as they would do to you,’ principle of justice. But the principle of love, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your might.” “You shall love your neighbour as yourself.”

“You shall love the stranger.” That comes into Western civilisation through Judaism. So it is that kind of love between husband and wife that all the prophets saw as the relationship between God and the Jewish people. It's that bond, unbreakable bond of loyalty. 

Sir David: Actually, I remember I once asked Richard Burton that question. What is your definition of love? And he said, “Love is staying awake all night with a sick child or a very healthy adult.”

What's been the happiest moment in your 22 years? 

Rabbi Sacks: Well, Sir David, I think this evening, today has not been a bad one. Because 20 years ago, and it was a key moment in my Chief Rabbinate, I launched a campaign and wrote a book called “Will We Have Jewish Grandchildren?” And this afternoon, our youngest child gave birth to her first child. And that's for me…

You know, in Judaism, family and the home are very, very sacred things. So, you know, the love that brings new life into the world, the delight and joy we've had from our children and now from our seven grandchildren, I mean, these are the really happy moments. 

Sir David: Absolutely. And in fact, back in 1994, you wrote a piece which was headed “Will We Have Jewish Grandchildren?” And, well, we have the grandchildren as we know now. But so maybe we should make the question, ‘Will we have Jewish great-grandchildren?’ What's the future in that sense of Jewishness? 

Rabbi Sacks: I tell you, David, the great privilege of these 22 years has been being part, a little part, a tiny little part of a Jewish community that really has transformed itself. The United Synagogue has become completely transformed.

In the old days, synagogue was a place where you went to pray and not terribly often as well. I love the story, you know, we have on Tabernacles, we put up this temporary booth for eight days. And I heard this as a true story from a synagogue in South Africa, that they got a team of workmen to put up this temporary dwelling, this booth, this hut, for our festival of Tabernacles.

And the workmen were fascinated. What were they building? So they asked the person who knew most about Judaism, which was always the synagogue caretaker. So he explained to the workers about this festival of Tabernacles.

And the workers turned to the caretaker and they said, “You mean to say we're putting all this up for just eight days?”

And the caretaker turned and pointed to the synagogue and said, “That's nothing. They put that up for three days a year.”

So our synagogues, which tended to be three days a year or one day a week, have now become seven days a week community centres. We've built more Jewish day schools in the last 22 years. 

Sir David: Well, that's probably perhaps your greatest achievement, what's happened. 

Rabbi Sacks: I think it's incredible. We've travelled the number of day school places in 20 years. And something extraordinary happened. For 60 years, year on year, from 1945 to 2005, we were declining numerically as a community. In 2005, that turned around. And we've begun to grow slowly, but we are growing. So we are really the first generation in the history of Anglo-Jewry whose children know more than us about Judaism and whose grandchildren will know more still.

And this is an incredible achievement of the whole community. 

Sir David: And that's probably the most important contribution that your 22 years has made. You cherish that very much, don't you?

Rabbi Sacks: I think it's incredibly important. Confucius, who wasn't Jewish, but probably ought to have been…

Sir David: Yes.

Rabbi Sacks: … said, “If you plan for a year, plant rice. If you plan for 10 years, plant a tree. If you plan for a century, educate a child.”

And we have always put education at the very top of our priorities. And I am proud of the community, of people who have built the schools, of parents who have sent their kids to those schools, and above all of the children themselves, who fill me with pride every time I go into one of those schools. 

Sir David: A lot of people write about this a lot. You did an article called “Why Does God Allow Terrible Things to Happen to His People?” At the time of the tsunami, I think someone said to the Archbishop of Canterbury, how can you believe in a God who permits suffering on this scale? What's your explanation of suffering? 

Rabbi Sacks: I think God is within us, not outside us. And obviously there are times in our history, at the very dawn of our history, when He intervened in history to liberate our people from slavery. But God is a parent and He gives us the freedom to be ourselves.

But He teaches us. God is a teacher. He teaches us how we should act.

And He is inside us. He gives us the strength to overcome every catastrophe. And somehow, you know, that's something Jews have learned. We've suffered, I think, more than most people over the last several thousand years. Never more so than in the Holocaust. And what an extraordinary story from General Shkedy just now that in Wannsee, where they actually sealed their Final Solution, condemning all Europe's 11 million Jews to death, the Jews gathered there all these years later and said, in effect, Am Yisrael Chai, the Jewish people still lives.

So we don't try and explain tragedy away. We don't say, ‘Why did this happen?’ Least of all do we say, ‘What is God punishing us for?’ We say, ‘What then shall we do?’ And God gives us the strength to save lives, to rebuild shattered lives. And somehow or other, Jews have come through every tragedy not looking back, but looking forward.

Sir David: That's crucial, isn't it? Not looking back, looking forward. And, I mean, in terms of people looking ahead and praying and so on, what is your message to people who try to join a synagogue or whatever and have just somehow not been able to encompass the faith and so on. And so they're reluctant atheists, reluctant agnostics. What do you say to them?

Rabbi Sacks: I say to them, come after the service and enjoy the whisky. And then if they enjoy the whisky and the fish balls, we say, listen, you can pray beforehand and you'll enjoy the whisky even more. 

Sir David: That's great, that's absolutely great. 

And as you look back on your life so far, and we've got more to talk about, but if you had your time so far over again, is there anything you would do differently? 

Rabbi Sacks: You know, I always say, somebody once asked me what it's like being Chief Rabbi, is it what you expected? And I said, the greatest kindness God ever does for us is He never lets us know in advance what we're letting ourselves in for. So I never second-guess the past.

Of course, anyone, any one of us, any leader, certainly, will always make mistakes. You learn from those mistakes, you apologise, you make amends, you try and do better next time. 

But I've never said, you know, what would I do if I had my life over again? I would say, here is this one life that God has given us, what am I going to do tomorrow? Not what should I have done yesterday. 

Sir David: Whenever people ask me my favourite interview, I always say the next one, because that's the most interesting thing. You are the next one, you see. You are my next one. 

Rabbi Sacks: Who have you got lined up next, David? 

Sir David: Don't know.

Rabbi Sacks: I mean, we're all retiring now, you know that. I mean, I became the first Chief Rabbi to retire before 70, then Rowan Williams decided he was going to retire before 70, then the Pope retired. I said to Rowan, ‘What do you think, Rowan? We've started a fashion.’

He said, ‘Yeah, I know, and I'm worried about the Dalai Lama next.’ Actually, it turned out to be Alex Ferguson instead. 

Sir David: And four days later, David Beckham was there. They're all catching on in the same way. 

But loneliness is one of the things you've written about often, that loneliness, that Christianity, Judaism, faith, can deal with the problem of loneliness. That loneliness is the worst, like solitary confinement, I mean, is one of the worst problems of life, yeah? 

Rabbi Sacks: Absolutely. And, you know, Genesis 1 begins with God saying, “Let there be, and there was, and God saw that it was good.” And seven times we read the word “good.” And it's fascinating to note where the words “not good” first appear - “It's not good for man to be alone.” 

And as a result, in Judaism, you're actually never alone. There was one time, I have to say this, happened before I was a rabbi, because I don't want it to sound bad, but we were living in a very, very Jewish neighbourhood.

And I said to Elaine, all those decades ago, ’Wouldn't it be nice to go somewhere where no one recognises us?’ Somewhere where there are actually no other Jews. So we found a little hotel in the middle of the countryside. And when we got there, we discovered it was full of all the Jews who wanted to get away from all the other Jews. We spent 48 hours avoiding eye contact. 

So you are never alone in Judaism, somehow. All the things that, in some other faiths, people do individually, in Judaism, we do together. So in some faiths, you confess very privately in a confessional. In Judaism, we confess on the Day of Atonement, out loud, in public - “We have sinned!”

Or at least, you probably have. Something like that. So, you know, whatever we do as Jews, we do together.

Sir David: Fascinating. In 1980, or in the early 1980s, Chief Rabbi, there were 2,500 marriages conducted in the United Synagogues. And now the figure, apparently, is down from 2,500 to 320. What effect will that have? 

Rabbi Sacks:  No, no. The marriages are actually increasing. I know that because to show each couple that we care about them and that they are special, I actually write, handwrite a card to every single Jewish couple who get married under my auspices. And I can always tell by the height of the pile, are we going down or are we going up? I think Jews are rediscovering the beauties of marriage. And I think, somehow, marriage needs consecration. It needs that air of sanctity. To feel that you are pledging yourself to something bigger than yourself. “It takes a village to raise a child,” is the African proverb. But sometimes it takes community and a tradition to sustain a marriage.

So I think marriage, after having had this dip, is coming back in the Jewish community. And marriages are very joyous things. 

Sir David: How do you see the relationship between Orthodox and Reform developing in the next few years? 

Rabbi Sacks: We had, 15, 16 years ago, one of those moments. You know, you're in the plane and the pilot says, ‘Fasten your seat belts, turbulence ahead.’ We had a certain amount of turbulence about 16, 17 years ago. And I felt very strongly that we can't continue to behave like this. That we are one very small people. And every one of us, whether we're Orthodox or not Orthodox, whether we're religious or not religious, every one of us is precious in the eyes of God. 

So let every one of us be precious in one another's eyes.

And I formulated two principles, which have, I think, allowed us to work really well together ever since. 

Number one, on all matters that affect us as Jews, regardless of our religious differences, let us work together. Regardless of our religious differences.

Number two, on all issues that touch on our religious differences, let us agree to differ but with respect.

And as a result of that, we've worked together across the board, across all the denominations, in wonderful cooperation, on welfare, on fighting antisemitism, on interfaith relations, on standing up for Israel. And we have one of the best relationships across the denominations of any community I know in the whole Jewish world.

And I think that, you know, it took that shock to the system all those years ago to say, no, we can't carry on like this, we've got to find a new way. And I think Jews have too many enemies out there. For heaven's sake, let none of us be an enemy to a fellow Jew.

Sir David: How has the job changed from when it was founded back in the 19th century, the job of Chief Rabbi, and what changes have you made to the job that will be inherited by your successors? 

Rabbi Sacks: Well, in the 19th century, nobody really knew what a Chief Rabbi was, you know. And I have a picture in my office of the Chief Rabbi of the first part of the 19th century, Solomon Herschel. And it's a Punch cartoon, I think, and it says underneath, “High Priest of the Jews.”

I said very little has changed except now the Chief Rabbi is the scapegoat instead of the High Priest, but otherwise the same principle. 

But the thing is that every generation generates new ways of communicating the message. So we were very early in using Internet. We were very early in using music and CDs. We're now... the choir that you've heard singing, we did a little YouTube video a few years ago which has had one and three-quarter million hits. Not even the choir has that many close relatives.

So we're using the social media, we're Tweeting, we're Facebooking, and doubtless we're Flickering, only I'm not sure about that. So we're trying always, whenever there's a new medium, I always ask my team in the office and the team in the United Synagogue, how can we use this new technology to touch more people in more creative ways? 

Sir David: Yeah, absolutely. And in addition, I mean, did you predict that your job would involve as much work as a politician, as a theologian? 

Rabbi Sacks: I never anticipated this at all. I'll tell you how it happened. It happened in 1993, I was already two years into the Chief Rabbinate. If you remember in 1993 in March, a terrible crime happened. A young four-year-old boy called Jamie Bulger was killed by two ten-year-old boys. And shockwaves went right through the country. I wrote an op-ed for the Times.

And the next day we got a phone call from 10 Downing Street. John Major was Prime Minister at the time. And they said, ‘Would the Chief Rabbi please come around? The Prime Minister would like to talk to him.’

And that's how that relationship began. I went into 10 Downing Street, I said, I'll visit John Major. And he said to me, “Jonathan, what should I do about crime?” I think I said “Be against it, Prime Minister.”

But that was the first of many very close friendships with other politicians. On all of the parties. 

Sir David: But also politics within Judaism and so on. That sort of politics as well. 

Rabbi Sacks: That kind of politics we've always had, believe you me. Other people have conversations. We have rows, broigeses, machloket. We have got more words in Hebrew for an argument than you can possibly even think of.

Everyone argues with everyone else. I mean, for heaven's sake, Abraham argues with God - “Shall the judge of all the earth not do justice?” Moses argues with God - ‘Why have you done it?’ I think God actually chose the Jewish people because He loves a good argument.

Sir David: That's a great point forward. I suppose that, well, on a piece of paper in your desk, what little bit of helpful message will you leave for your successor? 

Rabbi Sacks: For my successor? Three things. Number one, don't read the newspapers. Number two, have a sense of humour. And number three, marry a good woman. And you're ahead. You'll get all the work.

Sir David: Brilliant. Yeah. Brilliant. He'll be very grateful for that. Extremely grateful for that. 

Rabbi Sacks: You remember what John F. Kennedy said when he got in? He said “The worst thing about going into the White House was when we got there, we discovered that things were as bad as we said they were.”

Sir David: Yes, that's right. A great line. I remember that line when he uttered it. That was great. What are the most promising traits or trends in society today? Or do you think society... I mean, there's things going on that... Well, take one example. You've come out very strongly against same-sex marriage. What to you is the serious danger of that, if it goes through? Are we on the road to hell? 

Rabbi Sacks: Look, I have not come out strongly on that. I have said that in Judaism we don't do it. But I have not come out strongly. And let me be very clear on this, David. 

I know that we have in the Jewish community gays and lesbians who feel very, very shunned by the community. And I simply will not be part of that.

I know that homosexuals were sent to the concentration camp, as were Jews. And therefore I will not allow any intolerance towards that in our synagogues. 

And I sat down 20 years ago with the Jewish gays and lesbians and the encounter that we had was one of the most moving I've ever had. They said to me, ‘We know, Chief Rabbi, you cannot give a blessing to our lifestyle. And we are not asking you to. But we do ask you not to be insensitive, not to have your rabbis be unnecessarily hurtful in what they say in public. And please, could we have access to pastoral support if we need it?’

And I thought that was a wonderful, wonderful encounter. And I've cherished that relationship ever since. 

We have a strongly defined sexual ethic in Judaism. It's more than 3,000 years old. But we do not seek to impose that on society as a whole. And I think religion should never seek to impose their view on society as a whole.

And when you cannot buy into every single one of the elements of the faith, then buy into those that you can buy into. And therefore we welcome everyone. Some people will not be able to keep those laws. Others will not be able to keep other laws. But in the United Synagogue we believe in holding the door open to everyone and leaving judgement to God, who does it much better than we do. 

Sir David: What about Israel in the sense that, obviously, when the Israelis are on the right track and so on, it's very easy to praise them and so on and so forth. But how have you defined your duty when you think Israel is doing a wrong thing or an evil thing? Many people say, take for instance, I think it was 2009, wasn't it? Gaza, I think, where you had 1,300 civilian and other deaths on one side and 13 on ours and so on. How do you deal with that situation? As a moral leader, you obviously can't endorse things that you don't believe are right. But you have to deal with that in a rather tactful way.

Rabbi Sacks: David, let me be very straight with you. Israel would not fire one rocket, one missile, one bullet against any Palestinian if they had not been attacked by Palestinian missiles from Gaza. Innocent civilians in Sderot, having to live their entire lives in fear of some rocket that may take them or their child. Would you live in a situation where your children, even in kindergarten, had day after day after day, for months, to go down into bomb shelters when every day you know your life is on the line? And would a single innocent civilian have suffered in Israel's campaign against Gaza if innocent civilians had not been used by Hamas as human shields? 

Now these are two horrendous... 

Sir David: The numbers are hugely suggesting that it was a slaughter. 1,347 versus 13. 

Rabbi Sacks: 1,300 people died in Gaza. I don't know how many tens and hundreds of thousands of civilians died as a result of the Western campaign in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I don't see the same moral odium attaching to the West. The West fully understands. 

And I think we have to be blunt.

Israel is the country that for 65 years has sought peace with its neighbours. And every single time it has made a significant sacrifice for peace, it has been punished by its neighbours. After ‘93, the handshake on the White House lawn, the Oslo Process, ‘94, the Palestinians began their campaign of suicide bombing. 2000, Israel pulled out of Lebanon and were rewarded by Hezbollah, gathering a most enormous arsenal of missiles, which eventually rained down on the north of Israel in 2006 for 34 consecutive days. Israel pulled out in 2005 from Gaza and was rewarded with the missiles hitting Sderot and then Ashkelon and then Ashdod, and more recently in Tel Aviv, where two of my brothers work, and they also have to go down now to bomb shelters because of Hamas missiles from Gaza.

Every time Israel makes a significant gesture towards the Palestinians for peace, the Palestinians respond by attacking Israel. What can Israel do if its neighbours checkmate themselves every time they hold out their hand of peace? 

Now these are difficult moral dilemmas and believe you me there is not one Israeli soldier or any single individual I have ever met in the Israeli Foreign Service or its intelligence division who enjoys any of this. 

We are a people who hold life sacred.

But if only those around us would do likewise, all the children in the region would have a future, would have hope. And therefore let us be unceasing in our offer to all the people of the Middle East. Let us work together to make our children have a better tomorrow than they have today. 

Sir David: Wouldn't it be possible for instance to have done more to help the peaceful Palestinians, not necessarily the members of Hamas, but I mean those people who are trying to build up a... 

Rabbi Sacks: 100%. 100%. Israel has some pretty peaceful Palestinians on the West Bank. The West Bank economy has been growing between 7 and 10 percent every year since the Oslo Process. Israel does help the Palestinians. Secondly, members of our community have set up in Ramallah and tried to set up in Gaza a microloan project to help Palestinians build their own new businesses and create an economic road map to peace.

And Israel has done everything it can to do just that. But I think the real clincher came from the former head of the Saudi Arabian Navy, writing in the Times last November, who said, for all the world to see, ‘Don't the Palestinians realise they have more rights in Israel than they have in any other country in the Middle East?’

Sir David: And that was a Saudi Arabian.

Rabbi Sacks: Well, look, Israel is the only place in the Middle East where a Palestinian can get up and on national television criticise the government and be a free man the next day. And that is quite something. I also find it quite difficult, David, to see some of the churches criticising Israel.

So I understand that. But do they not understand that Israel is the only place today in the Middle East where it is safe to be a Christian? 

Sir David: In this context, where did antisemitism start? Who invented antisemitism? 

Rabbi Sacks: I don't know, actually. It's been around a long time. The first real recorded antisemite was a gentleman called Haman in the Book of Esther, who clearly didn't like salt-beef sandwiches or something. 

But he said, ‘There is this one people whose laws are different from any other people.’ So that very first statement, recorded statement of antisemitism, is, I think, also the most revealing, because it says that antisemitism is the key example of dislike of the unlike.

Jews were different. In mediaeval Europe, they were the only significant group who weren't Christian. In today's Middle East, they are the only significant country that isn't Muslim. So Jews were hated because they were different. And you'll say, well, look, everyone is different. And I agree with you.

But Jews were the only people who consistently throughout history stood up for the right to be different, for the duty to be different, for what I call “The Dignity of Difference.” They were the only minority group who throughout the centuries refused to assimilate to the dominant culture or convert to the dominant faith. 

So that is why I don't see antisemitism as a crime just against Jews.

I see it as a crime against humanity. 

Because difference is what makes life sacred. Because each of us is different, each of us is irreplaceable.

And if that is the case, then a world that has no room - or any country or any society that has no room for Jew - has no room for difference, has no room for humanity. 

And that is why I say antisemitism is a crime. Not just against Jews, but against humanity.

Antisemitism begins with Jews, but it never ends with Jews. 

Sir David: Chief Rabbi, this has been a really special occasion for me. And the time has rocketed by. And I just want to say that it's been a real privilege to have this conversation. And please, for God's sake, keep on this refreshing attitude to the world that you have through every year of your hopefully only semi-retirement. 

Rabbi Sacks: Thank you. Sir David. Thank you so much for this evening. Thank you so much for all you've given this country. And did anyone ever tell you you do a wonderful Michael Sheen imitation?