On Inter-religious Dialogue, with Imam Abdullah Antepli

Transcript

0:00 [Music] This is Duke University

0:07 Good evening. May I welcome you here tonight for our conversation on Civility and

0:13 difference. I'm Noah Pickus, associate Provost here at Duke University and on

0:19 behalf of the Morris B Abram distinguished residency committee I am pleased to welcome you to this entire

0:26 evening. It's one of a series events of events that this week that are associated with the Abram residency and

0:34 it's co-sponsored by a variety of organizations here at Duke these include

0:39 the religions and public life initiative of the Kenan Institute for Ethics the Duke Center for Jewish studies the

0:46 Samuel and Ronnie Haymon Center for ethics public policy and the professions

0:51 the Sanford School of Public Policy Duke Student Affairs and the Center for civic

0:58 engagement the more B Abram distinguished residency was made possible by a gift to Duke from the

1:05 Abram family in honoir of the late civil rights activist attorney and President

1:10 of Brandeis University among his career contributions Morris Abram served as US

1:17 Representative to the UN Commission on human rights and founded un watch a

1:23 non-governmental organization that monitors un performance he also helped

1:28 draft the fourth J Geneva Convention which established international law with

1:33 regard to protecting civilians in war zones he worked for 14 years to overturn

1:39 a Georgia election rule that gave less weight to votes cast by Urban black voters and pursued other legal changes

1:47 in his home state to protect civil rights activists the Abram family is

1:52 here tonight and we would like to thank them and welcome them

2:03 I want to now turn the podium over to Professor Laura Liber professor of religious studies and director of the

2:09 Center for Jewish studies who will introduce the program and the

2:21 panel thank you all it's my pleasure to be here after what um after months of

2:28 anticipation and on behalf of the Center for Jewish studies it's really terrific to look out and see such a crowd for

2:35 such a worthy and inspiring event I'm going to just go right into introducing

2:41 our two panelists and our moderators so that we can have as much time as possible for the

2:47 conversation no soul was ever saved by hate no truth ever proved by violence No

2:56 Redemption was ever brought about by a holy war now is the time for Jews

3:01 Christians and Muslims to say what they have failed to say in the past we are all children of Abraham and whether we

3:08 are Isaac or Ishmael Jacob or Esau Leia or Rachel Joseph or his brothers we are

3:15 precious in the sight of God we are blessed and to be blessed no

3:20 one has to be cursed God's love does not work that way so writes International

3:27 religious leader philosopher award author and deeply respected moral voice

3:32 Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sachs in the final pages of his most recent book not in guide God's name described by his Royal

3:40 Highness the Prince of Wales as a light unto this nation and by former British Prime Minister Tony Blair as an

3:46 intellectual giant we are deeply honored that Rabbi saak is our distinguished guest this evening since stepping down

3:54 as the chief Rabbi of the United Hebrew congregations of the British Commonwealth a position he served for 20

3:59 two years Rabbi sax has held a number of professorships at several academic

4:05 institutions he currently serves as the ingaborg and Ira Renard Global distinguished professor at NYU Rabbi

4:12 Sacks has been awarded 17 honorary doctorates and in 2016 he received the Templeton prize in recognition of his

4:19 powerful moral voice in the world and his affirmation the religion need not indeed must not be alienated from the

4:26 Public Square he is the author of over two dozen Bel loved books including to

4:31 heal a fractured world the Dignity of difference and most recently not in God's name he is an articulate spokesman

4:39 for the value of true and robust pluralism a Thoroughly Modern voice rooted firmly In classical Jewish

4:47 sources conversing with him will be Imam Abdullah anle Imam anley a treasured

4:55 colleague is Chief representative of Muslim Affairs at Duke University and Senior fellow at the Duke office of

5:02 Civic engagement he completed his initial religious training and education in his native turkey but we at Duke are

5:09 so lucky that he has made his home here a Pioneer in advocating for robust and

5:14 organic presence of Muslims on college campuses among other locations Imam anley is the founder and

5:21 executive board member of the association of college Muslim chaplain and a board member of the association

5:26 for college and university religious affairs he came to Duke as our first Muslim

5:32 chaplain in 2008 the same year I arrived so I have never known Duke without him

5:37 and through his current work here Imam anley engages students faculty and staff across and Beyond campus through

5:44 seminars panels and other avenues he works tirelessly and I do mean tirelessly as what others find wearing

5:50 seems to energize him to bring Muslim voices and perspectives to the discussions of Faith spirituality social

5:57 justice and more Imam an also serves as a faculty member in the Duke Divinity School teaching a variety of courses on

6:05 Islam and Muslim traditions and cultures and he's a pioneering figure in interreligious dialogue for reasons that

6:10 will soon become self-evident including his kindness humor Integrity passion and

6:16 eloquence our discussion will be moderated by Professor Ellen Davis Ellen

6:22 Davis has an official title she is Amos Reagan Kern's professor of Bible and practical theology at Duke Divinity

6:28 School what this does not tell you is that she is a gem A Gifted author an award-winning teacher a compelling moral

6:35 voice and the epitome of Grace someone I count myself blessed to have as friend and Mentor the author of 10 books and

6:42 many articles her research focuses on how biblical interpretation Bears on the life of Faith communities and their

6:48 response to Urgent public issues particularly the environmental crisis and Interfaith relations her recent book

6:55 biblical prophecy perspective for Christian theology discipleship Ministry explores the prophetic role in word

7:01 across both Testaments of the Christian Bible scripture culture and agriculture an agrarian reading of the Bible

7:08 integrates biblical studies with a critique of industrial Agriculture and food production her most recent book is

7:14 preaching the Luminous word a collection of sermons and essays a Le Episcopalian

7:19 with a truly Universal and encompassing soul and an Intrepid deeply curious mind Professor Davis has been an active

7:25 theological consultant within the Anglican communion her work takes takes her frequently to Sudan as well as around

7:31 the globe but her work abroad continually enriches all that she does here in the community and the classroom

7:37 I could go on about the richness she and my other colleagues have brought to interreligious conversation on our campus but suffice to say that I can

7:44 think of no better interlocutor for tonight's Rich discussion thank you all and

7:57 welcome thank you Noah pickus Laura Liber and thank you especially Rabbi sax

8:04 and Imam anley for being with us this evening you are both Faith leaders who

8:13 are somewhat unusual in them in the priority that you give to interaction

8:19 with persons of other faiths Would You Begin by speaking to us about how your view of that work and

8:26 your involvement in it has changed over the use I will indeed Ellen let me just

8:33 before I begin to answer can I just add uh my own sense of thanks and privilege

8:42 being able to take part in this tribute to the memory of one of the great great

8:47 figures of American Life the the late Morris Abraham and to say how moving it

8:54 is to pay tribute to his work and to meet the members of his family it's just

8:59 terrific second what a gem you have in the Imam here I mean this is a one man

9:08 irresistible Force for good who has shown that the love of God leads you to

9:16 the love of human beings and Imam I had heard about you from many mutual friends

9:23 of ours and the great great blessings you've conferred on us all so we salute

9:29 you and may God bless you in all you do and it's a privilege to be with you thank you and finally let me just add

9:36 for those who missed it and I nearly missed it myself um as we were coming in the

9:42 church bells were ringing um and somebody

9:48 noticed that as we were walking across the courtyard they started playing a

9:53 Jewish song, avainu Shalom - we welcome you. Now somebody asked me, is it still Jewish

10:00 if it's played on church bells? To which my answer is, you don't

10:06 ask a question like that in Duke. Here we've got church bells playing a Jewish song, and here we are an Imam and a rabbi

10:13 together. I expect the Messiah to come immediately and we will not ask him or

10:19 her whether he or she is Jewish Muslim or Christian we will just celebrate

10:24 being together so thank you for an unprecedented and wonderful welcome welcome now let me tell you why as Chief

10:32 Rabbi Interfaith work was so important to me it seems to me that this is the

10:39 very heart of the abrahamic faith human beings have always

10:46 worshiped they have always been in awe at the vastness of the universe and the

10:51 smallness of us but by and large they worried the Sun

10:57 the wind the storm they worship power to some extent human beings still

11:04 worship power Along Came Judaism Christianity and Islam and put another

11:11 concept at the heart of religion namely love you shall love the Lord your God

11:17 with all your heart with all your soul and with all your might you shall love your neighbor as yourself and most

11:23 important of all in the Hebrew Bible it appears in some form or other 36 times

11:29 you shall love the stranger because it's easy to love your neighbor especially if

11:34 you live in a place like Durham, North Carolina but it's the stranger the

11:39 person who is whose language and culture and maybe colour is different from yours

11:45 that's hard to to love and that's why the Bible

11:50 says I made all human beings in My image, not necessarily in your image, and

11:58 that's the challenge, much and therefore it seemed to me in a world RI Riven by conflict if religious leaders could not

12:06 show that love we didn't deserve to be religious

12:11 leaders now there is a list as you know in the Bible of kosher and non- koser

12:18 animals and one of the non- kosher animals is the stalk and a stalk in

12:25 Hebrew is called Aid and the word comes from the Hebrew which means loving

12:33 kindness so people ask the obvious question how come an animal whose name

12:39 means loving kindness is not a kosher animal to which the answer is stalk

12:45 loves only its own and unless you love extends beyond

12:51 your own that really isn't love so I felt that we had to show this so that is

13:0 0one of the most powerful signals we sent in Britain was that we were close as

13:06 religious leaders there nine major Faith communities in Britain Jews Christians

13:11 Muslims Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists James oasrian and Bahai uh they all were guests

13:18 in our home we in did receptions to introduce the leaders of those various

13:24 communities to one another Rowan and I - Rowan Williams - when he was Archbishop of

13:29 Canterbury and I took them all to aitz together for a day and that was a a

13:35 deeply bonding experience tragically you know realizing where hate could take us

13:42 and this had an impact so we have just had a terrorist incident in Britain last

13:48 Wednesday you probably saw that in the papers we had our own big terrorist in

13:55 incident on 77 2005 the 7th of July there were suicide bombings in the

14:01 subway and London buses within 24 hours the Home Secretary

14:07 had assembled all the faith leaders together because he was worried that

14:12 more damaging than the casualties in the terrorist attack would be acts of violence between different religious

14:18 groups mainly in Midlands towns as we sat it together around the

14:24 table at the home office I said Home Secretary what you don't understand is that all of us around this table are

14:32 friends and somehow that conveyed itself I mean we all stood together at trala

14:37 square and we all spoke together and sang together and that hit the news and that that photo opportunity actually

14:45 told a message so there was not a single attack on any M Muslim or there

14:52 was there was no racial or ethnic incident after 77 and there wasn't incidentally after

15:00 this recent attack so when you work at good relations across

15:05 faiths it shapes and refines a national culture

15:10 and creates a mood and I think that becomes the single biggest imperative

15:16 today in the 21st century when we are all thrust so close to one another

15:22 because the internet has abolished distance it hasn't abolished difference but it's abolished distance so that's

15:29 why we do it and it's been terribly rewarding so you're suggesting that love

15:34 and friendship actually filters out into your

15:39 communities it filters out and sometimes in very dramatic ways for some reason

15:45 the BBC allowed me to take to uh do a television film every year 30 minute

15:52 television film which was a message to the nation now go figure on this one here's

15:58 a Rabbi talking to an audience 99.5% of whom are not

16:04 Jewish I was wondering where's a precedent for this and I had to go back

16:10 to the prophet Jonah who appears to be the last one to go out and preach to the Heathen if you know what I mean so uh so

16:19I I I had this Incredible Gift of prime time television for half an hour on BBC

16:261 and on one occasion for instance you remember there was an

16:32 American journalist called Daniel Pearl who was murdered in 2002 in

16:38 Karachi Daniel's father Judea I was able to take Daniel's father Judea and akba

16:44 Ahmed who was then the Pakistani High Commissioner in Britain they became friends and they were talking together

16:51 in our home and we filmed that and then I took them both into a Jewish school

16:57 and then I took them both into a Muslim school with the BBC cameras and I was so powerful he was a

17:03 father who just lost his son looking at the camera with his friend the Pakistani

17:09 High Commissioner who has been since then a friend of Elena myself saying

17:14 hate killed my son so I will spend the rest of my life fighting

17:22 hate a film that made an even bigger impact because it was so improbable is

17:27 that there is an orthodox Jewish Day School King David in Birmingham in which over 51% of the

17:36 children are Muslim this was a school Under myis it's a small Jewish community so even if all

17:43 the Jew Jewish kids go to the school it's it's um it's it's still majority

17:50 Muslim plus a lot of Hindus and a lot of six Birmingham is uh is the area that

17:56 has the worst Interfaith relations in Britain and the this suicide killer of last week came from Birmingham or was

18:04 radicalized in Birmingham so here's a school with young kids mainly Muslim and

18:10 to have a Muslim parent say I especially moved into that part of Birmingham so

18:17 that I could send my children to a Jewish school do you know what that conveyed on Prime Time

18:24 television and then I spent the day with the kids teaching them an Israeli Peace

18:29 song that they sang in Hebrew and Arabic and English Shalom

18:4 Aleinu shalom we're gonna dance to that onom we're saving that till the end and then

18:46 we're going to get them all to sing it okay but I mean the number of people who wrote to me saying there were tears in

18:53 our eyes when we see the camera was panning across the faces of the children and you could see which were the Jewish

18:59 ones which were the Muslim ones and the Chinese ones and the siks you know so

19:05 when you can deliver a message like that very visual it doesn't have to be terribly cerebral it has to be visual

19:12 you say something and the truth is Faith is one of those things that grows bigger

19:20 by being shared IM well first of all thank you and

19:25 welcome welcome to Duke welcome to the land of Blue Devils um I hope your next academic appointment

19:31 will be here so we will enjoy your presence and your wisdom uh your kind words is a case study for humility and

19:39 beauty is in the eyes of Beholder uh proverb uh I've been following your work and when I grow up I want to be like you

19:46 uh Never Grow Up first rule in life grow old yes grow up no no we are um brothers

19:53 and sisters in the audience we are really in the presence of a very holy man and I hope we can enjoy the presence

20:00 as much as we can much like the current Pope Francis um I think your presence

20:05 your work um the reality that you create globally

20:10 transnationally it captures the moral imagination of many of us Muslim Jewish Christian and others because uh your

20:18 work is a proof proof of an impossible for a lot of us that what you are

20:23 proving what religion can become what religious person can become what religion when it works when it best

20:29 looks like and you model this I hope uh as generation coming after you Jews

20:35 Christians and Muslims we are going to do a better job at least sustaining that beauty and glory of God in your in your

20:41 beautiful work um my attraction to Inner Faith was like many of us initially very

20:47 utilitarian very pragmatic um I was unstoppably if that's a correct word

20:53 curious about anything and everything that's different I have this inate curiosity about anything that's

20:59 different than me in general but when I became an Imam understanding Judaism and

21:04 Christianity and Hinduism and Buddhism it became an essential part of uh my

21:09 work intellectual and Theological work but also it became an essential responsibility for problem solving so

21:16 curiosity and problem solving was my major introduction to Interfaith dialogue to um tame and stop and

21:24 eliminate hopefully the in religious intolerance in my community and try to explain Islam as religion and Muslims as

21:30 people to non-muslims it became a major part of my work more than more than I spend my time with the with the Muslim

21:38 communities I spend more time uh with the Interfaith communities I have a son

21:44 um we had couple of his uh classmates at our house for a sleepover on a Saturday

21:50 night and a Sunday morning we were having breakfast I said in a rushing way I'm sorry Friday night on a Saturday

21:57 morning I had said I I'm rushing because I have to go to a synagogue to give a talk and my friends my son's friend said

22:05 I thought you guys were Muslims and my son rolled over his eyes and said my father goes to synagogue and churches

22:11 more than many Christians and Jews we [Laughter] know but as I made those

22:20 intellectual um professional Journeys into Judaism and Christianity in particular that pragmatism and

22:26 utilitarian agenda became so superficial to me the inner faith I mean if it

22:32 solves any problem that's fine as we Muslim says but uh but uh I think there's

22:39 something bigger and better and Holier is available for us as I learned more

22:45 about Christianity as I learned more about Judaism as I shopped in the Jewish and Christian supermarkets and saw

22:51 what's displayed in those shelves it made me a better Muslim I developed an

22:57 incredibly um sophisticated understanding of my own faith which without that cross Faith

23:03 cross religious conversation couldn't be possible I think the success that's my measure of success for Interfaith

23:10 dialogue if it makes you more rooted more confident more attached to your own

23:15 faith tradition as you simultaneously develop an appreciation knowledge and holy Envy towards other Faith Traditions

23:22 so it became from problem solving into Defending Your Community to solving

23:28 internal issues to spiritual swimming in the spiritual pleasures of oceans that I

23:34 experience God's presence in my life I experience Shekhiuna, the kind of in

23:40 a rich way in those Rich cross Faith conversations especially if it is done

23:45 with people who are so confident and root in their own Fai thtradition I uh sometimes it is more spiritually

23:52 pleasurable I would say um those crossfaith conversation then I don't necessarily find that pleasure all the

23:58 time in my own mosque setting or Muslim spaces um the last thing I will say

24:04 there are so many verses in the Holy Quran God says I created you different being the youngest Faith youngest

24:10 sibling of the abrahamic faith I guess Muslims try to understand religious difference early on and God goes out of

24:18 its way out of her way or his way uh the English pronounce are very problematic

24:24 uh to assign gender to God is such a spiritually struggle for me but God says

24:29 I created you different in many instances so that you will get to know one another so that you will compete in

24:35 doing God's work together in the 21st century where all religions are together where Global realities are push pushing

24:43 us forcing us to be much closer proximity um than ever before those

24:48 verses of the Quran means a lot more I think cross Faith Interfaith is more than problem solving more than defeating

24:54 terrorism more than which is the noble uh Noble goal more than just ending hate

25:00 I think there is more to it that God in many ways we can sing some new songs to God jointly without compromising our

25:07 particularisms without compromising our fate Traditions one of my biggest fears I don't know I would love to hear from

25:13 you Rabbi one of my biggest fear about Interfaith dialogue it will turn into a religion itself it will it will

25:21 undermine and disrespect the particularisms of this Millennium long wisdoms accumulated in Judaism

25:26 Christianity and Islam that we will will all just be one uh I think uh to that's

25:32 my biggest fear I hope it will be just the opposite we will do more meaningful more rewarding more nurturing Interfaith

25:38 conversations that it will only highlight those beautiful unique

25:44 particular articulations of God's glory and grace in Judaism Christianity Islam and

25:49 more let me just add if I may just two little footnotes number one your your last

25:57 point um it seems to me and I've argued this in my book

26:05 Dignity of difference that the true Beating Heart

26:10of monotheism is not one God one truth one way but the unity in heaven creates

26:18diversity down here on Earth and it is in our

26:25particularity that is born our un un verality the reason we read the novels

26:32of tolto is because he's so Russian the reason we love the paintings

26:39of Monet is that because he's so French the reason we love the Serene beauty of

26:46a zen garden it's because it's so Japanese so we're not all one big Global

26:53franchise so that you can go all over the world and buy the same object object in the same

27:00Supermarket what really speaks to all of us is what is unique in each of us and

27:07that and that therefore means that if we truly engage uh in in friendship and and

27:14genuine love love is inherently particular Justice is inherently

27:20Universal but love is inherently particular and therefore the distinctive

27:26Gifts of Islam and Christianity and Judaism will not be diminished by that

27:32the second thing is that what we are working toward I have to say this because it's a

27:39story that not many people know has already occurred we're not creating

27:45something unprecedented we are recovering a story that's almost unknown and here is the

27:52story the first person I can identify who made a religious case for freedom of

28:00speech was the great Islamic Theologian averos in the 12th century he's the

28:07first person ever to say if you're confident in your faith you do not wish

28:13to silence your opponents you wish them to speak as forcefully as possible

28:19because you know that you're going to win that is then taken up four centuries

28:26later by one of my ancestors sisters somebody known as the maharal of Prague

28:31Rabbi Judah Loi of Prague Who quotes it in the name of AOS 50 years later it is

28:38taken up by the great Christian writer in England John Milton in his defense of

28:45free speech ARA paga two centuries later it is taken up by a secular humanist

28:52John Stewart Mill in his essay on Liberty so here is an argument for

28:58Liberty and freedom of speech begun by a Muslim adopted by a Jew then by a

29:03Christian then by a secular humanist and people don't know this story they think

29:08we're going to have to invent something new in the 21st century it was actually Islam that showed the way existentially

29:17in that remarkable period known as convivencia in al-andalus in Islamic

29:23Spain under the umiads and it's there and therefore we don't need to ask is

29:30it's possible it is possible because all those years ago it was

29:35actual so I I I think this should give people grounded hope that what we are

29:41aspiring to can be done because it has been done am I allowed to respond yes

29:48but may I ask a question also of of of both of you at this moment you say we're not inventing

29:55something but is there also something particular about this historical moment

30:02is it different because of aitz for instance is it or other factors so if if

30:09you would bring that into the conversation absolutely and my answer was going to be very relevant to your question as well uh quite honestly Rabbi

30:17Sak I I struggle with that we are not inventing anything question and um I

30:23arrived to a conclusion that some invention is needed because what's out there in the tradition is partially

30:30helpful and sometimes if it is not utilized well it's like if you learn how to type with two fingers your ability to

30:36type with 10 fingers become even more difficult I agree that religious pluralism is not new and I am

30:44confidently and proudly proclaimed that Islam in its own 14400 years of History

30:49has been in the Forefront of recognizing the Dignity of difference and understanding religious difference much

30:56more successfully and Islam had many privileges because we came as the youngest sibling of abrahamic family and

31:03after 10 years of persecution Muslims dealt with religious difference from a from a position of power and privilege

31:10it's much easier to be charitable to people of other faith when you are when you are religion of an Empire and it's

31:17much more difficult um therefore I think religious minorities relatively speaking

31:23had much easier time in the Muslim world just compare the Jewish experience in the Muslim world and the Jewish

31:29experience in in in elsewhere it wasn't Rosy but relatively speaking it's

31:34incredibly incredibly generous charitable accommodating but when I look to the Past what our tradition and our

31:41ancestors have given to us they have given to us what worked in their time it

31:46was an imperial peace it was an imperial pluralism that it was

31:52hierarchal it was hierarchal meaning whoever wins whoever assumes the political power they are in the business

31:59class and everybody else depending on their loyalty to the state and the status quo they were in the economy

32:05class they were in the closet they were in whatever wherever they travel I think what is particular about our time is if

32:11you're going to take this pluralism very seriously both theologically as well as socially and politically time and the

32:18kind of voices of exclusion people who unwelcome religious pluralism or ethnic

32:24racial pluralism they are demanding us to figure this out in a new way that

32:29those hierarchal um system that ranked value

32:34of religions and religious uh religious dignity is no longer valid in the 21st

32:40century that uh we have to find out a way how in the 21st century look for what's out there but improve it how can

32:48we come up with the abrahamic pluralism 2.0 or 3.0 which would require not to

32:54see people in different ranks but equal if I may just end with aidic

33:02jokei was desperate I don't know any

33:09Muslim was um just came across in the middle of the night another another uh

33:16another disciple of the same Rabbi I don't know if you know this joke I haven't heard from a lot of people in

33:21the middle of the night he was desperately looking for a key he was desperately looking for a key and then

33:27of course as a as a generous human being he started helping him looking everywhere and then they look everywhere

33:33but they couldn't find the key and the guy who's trying to help asked did you drop the key here are you sure he said

33:39no I didn't drop it here then why are you looking in this area he said this is the only place

33:46light is on this is the only place there's light so I think um in addition

33:52this is not in disagreement with you there are things where our tradition our religion in the past shed light on there

33:58are things that we need to learn and improve but I think in the modern 21st century religious egalitarian equal

34:06pluralism and equality requires us holding hands and walking towards those

34:11Dark Places who have yet to be lit who have yet to be uh cleared out from the

34:16kind of Darkness that they are in you you are entirely correct and uh the reason I said what I

34:24did is not that I think all the answers have been provided but we do have

34:30precedent to build on there is no doubt that to move to the

34:37kind of deep acceptance of the other from within a given monotheism to

34:45those outside it is going to need some dramatic reinterpretation of

34:54texts uh when I stood with Imam and with

34:59Archbishop category Ground Zero you know still smoking wreckage I decided then

35:06and there that that had to be my personal task primary task from then on

35:14and I wrote a book called Dignity of difference that was published on the first anniversary of

35:22911 I was pretty nearly excommunicated for that which given the that I am the

35:28guy who excommunicates was fairly radical

35:33actually um in fact Ron Williams had just been

35:40appointed Archbishop of Canterbury and just a week before he'd attended a druid

35:45service which is heretical in Christian terms so there was a headline in a

35:51newspaper of ours called The Guardian for some reason I never cut it out I should have done it said

35:58Archbishop Canterbury and chief Rabbi accused of

36:04heresy and I said to R there can't have been many times that that headline has

36:09been used so I had to take a lot of risks to write Dignity of difference and

36:15I knew then and there that that was the beginning not the end I took even more risks with not in God's name which is a

36:23dramatic rereading of four or five key narratives in Genesis I'm giving readings to those

36:31texts that have never been given before and you have to have that

36:37courage um one of the things that empowered me was having looked very

36:42carefully of what the Catholic church had done after the Holocaust when a very

36:48great Pope John the 23d set in motion Vatican 2 which culminated in

36:54austri he didn't live to see it but that did indeed

37:00reinterpret uh Christian texts I mean giving Primacy as it were

37:06to uh Romans 11 over and above other texts and you will know that to

37:12reinterpret the Quran you've got to do something very similar Like the quote

37:17that you just gave us about creating differences so that you may know one another you have to reinterpret the

37:23texts I uh was at the National Prayer Breakfast couple of months ago and I met a great

37:31Imam whom I I admit I'd never heard of before I wasn't there who I know another

37:38great imar uh called if if I've got his name right Shake Ben B yes yes Abdullah

37:44Bin Bay who had constructed and had joined with him 200 imams the maresh

37:52Declaration which I think is quite a bold statement of the rights of minorities in

37:59Islamic countries breaking away from that Demi concept of second class

38:04citizenship so you can point to examples I think in all three faiths but it is it

38:11is a radical reading rereading of the text and I believe as a religious

38:18believer that God wants us to hear within the word of God for all time

38:28the word of God for this time and that is clearly going to be

38:33radical and risky absolutely both of you have emphasized

38:40the maintaining the partic particularity and integrity of your own

38:46Traditions would you speak a little bit about the Dynamics of

38:53interfaith dialogue or work how that might differ between different pairs

39:00within the abrahamic faiths is it different for instance with Muslims and

39:06Christians than with Muslims and Jews um and and I think each of you work

39:16with with a pair with different pairs and also across those three would you

39:24just talk about the complexities of those so I am a big believer of bilateral

39:30relationships it's not an either or question of course our call for inclusion or for for call for Interfaith

39:37conversations it should be as widely welcoming and open as possible um as

39:43many Faith Traditions should be represented as long as they are confident enough in the aa's word to

39:49represent their faith tradition but in addition to those like big tent Interfaith conversations where everybody

39:55is welcome I think there is tremendous amount of wisdom and tremendous amount of potential reward and at significant

40:04potential consequence if you don't do it um if you don't do bilateral one-on-one

40:09conversations as you know um I do a lot of Jewish Muslim relations work Jewish

40:15Christian work um because I believe these Faith Traditions their theologies

40:20their emphasis more importantly their histories their histories in the context

40:26of Jewish Muslim Rel is contradicting histories contradicting memories

40:31contradicting and the self- glorifying uh sources of information for a long

40:36time uh has brought us to a place where those kind of difficult complicated issues will not be addressed if there

40:43are nine traditions we are talking about we are all God's children Etc that requires much long Marathon sort of

40:51one-on-one conversations where we can go and address the ideological and Theological roots of that problem and

40:56also social political and historical roots of the problem um if I may give a

41:02few examples between Jews and Muslims it is especially in the West in Europe and the United States it is it is

41:09no secret that we are not doing well it is no secret that Jews and Muslims are as more regretfully our great report is

41:16not very impressive we wouldn't get C minus uh Jews and Muslims in the Middle East they are not locking arms and

41:24singing and neither in Europe I don't that they are singing o shalomov here in

41:30America we have a relatively better better situation uh but I hope we will

41:35seize the moment of the of the situation and but even in the United States where Jewish Muslim relations are relatively

41:42better Jews and Muslims only get together and get along if you don't SP if you don't speak about Israeli

41:48Palestinian conflict if they don't speak about politics if they only come together and eat Kus and talk about

41:55Halal chicken ker chicken which I I am so tired of there is so much more we can do and

42:02and and it's so regrettable to me pathological uh it's pathetic that Jews and Muslims in America can't go beyond

42:11the superficial Kumbaya singing sessions as often they are criticized and can

42:16address the real root causes major problems that dividing polarizing Jews and Muslims same thing with the Islam

42:23and Christianity and uh one of the one of the ways in which which we shouldn't do these bilateral relationship is one

42:31of the funniest word and most troubling word that I heard after coming to United States 15 years ago I heard somebody in

42:38a lecture was mentioning Jude Christian civilization I thought John Stewart was making fun of somebody like I I thought

42:45it was it was a joke Juda Christian civilization first time I heard I said did anybody study Jewish Christian

42:50relationship in the last 2,000 years like you would be ashamed to say judaic Christian civilization in that sense uh

42:57if it is done in the context of forget about our history and our real issues we

43:02will just present a block against uh keeping Islam as a stepchild in the

43:07family um then it's it's harmful but if it is about we have particular challenges and opportunities let's sit

43:14down and talk I think it should be welcome encouraged and support it

43:20historically the bilateral relations have been very different for one curious

43:26reason which is that although Jewish Muslim relations well

43:32not great were nonetheless over historical span much

43:39better than Jewish Christian relations there was always much more Jewish Christian dialogue not in the

43:46modern sense used to be called disputations and Jews didn't know I mean

43:51the you know the famous most famous was the uh one in Barcelona in

43:571263 MH and Jews did not know whether it was better to win or to lose you know it

44:02was very uncomfortable um but that in that sense

44:08there was much more talking between Jews and Christians than between Jews and

44:14Muslims but the theological differences between Jews and Christians are much greater than between

44:21Jews and Muslims who share a very austere an ionic

44:28monotheism and a very similar approach to law Sharia and the reason that there

44:34was not much Jewish Muslim conversation but there was a great deal of Jewish Christian one is that Jews and Christians shared a text what we call

44:41tanak what Christians called the Old Testament whereas Jews and Muslims didn't share a text so they never had

44:48something to study together so um the truth is that those relationships played

44:55out differently over time and um they are still painful

45:01there's no question they are still really painful because those texts are

45:08mindfields you know however much you try to look at the the nice texts there are

45:15hard texts all over the place and they occupy a very potent

45:21place in the minds of many Believers so um these are difficult

45:26things and I therefore some years ago

45:31seeing some of the limits of text-based dialogue I it's a wonderful thing to do

45:38but it's often done by very gifted people with great

45:44deal of theological self-confidence and Interfaith violence

45:49takes place on the streets of Birmingham not you know in the beautiful campuses

45:55of Oxford or Cambridge sessions in exactly so you know in the end I um

46:02chose to be guided by a different philosophy and I

46:07wrote a sort of little book about this called the home we build together and I spoke about face to face and side by

46:15side face to face is Interfaith dialogue it's an elite activity whereas side by side is

46:22different so let me give you an example of side by side side by side Jews in

46:28America and we took it to England have something called Mitzvah day which is a

46:33day one day of the year when we ask all the members of our community to go and do an act of kindness to somebody who's

46:40not a member of their Community to reach outside the faith the Hindus in Britain

46:47heard about Mitzvah day and they said could we have a mitz for

46:52day so um as as we said gazinta he please feel free so they did seawood day

47:00the next year they said could we do seawood day and Mitzvah day on the same

47:05day so I became Jews and Hindus doing Mitzvah together then the Muslims heard

47:11and they joined in and then the Chris churches they always late Muslim yeah then the churches join in and then

47:18everyone was joining in so we were all you know Muslim and you know me and my

47:26you know painting walls of hospices or building bird boxes for Park

47:32we were all you know we were all doing this together side by side now the

47:37beauty of side by side is it involves no theology it's street level and what it

47:44does it doesn't produce agreement what it produces is friendship and when you have friendship

47:51you discover that the people not like us are people

47:57like us and when that happens a conversation can begin not

48:05easy but when it is there rooted in a an existing friendship it becomes real and

48:12it becomes strong so although I you know I acknowledge that this is a spiky sort

48:17of territory which you know is difficult there are other ways when you get held

48:22up here you know I always chose to find another way and and we've moved on

48:29through that side by side even though the face to face sometimes between Jews and Muslims in Europe is not great I'd

48:37like to ask you to talk a little bit more about the face to face uh but before

48:43that I'm curious about the approach that you've taken in your book not in God's

48:48name in which you're doing serious as you've just said biblical

48:54interpretation um through very much if not most of that book who who do you

49:01imagine to be your audience who do you think will slow down for

49:07that um I wanted to write a book that was very

49:16first of I wanted to do two things in that book number one I wanted to make a

49:23religious protest against religious violence

49:29I mean you know my dearly beloved friend Richard Dawkins with whom we agreed to

49:35disagree on many things we know that Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and the

49:41late Christopher Hitchins have made secular critiques of violence in the

49:46name of God you know you don't need another one of those or although I could have written it I do write secular books

49:54I felt it was important for a religious voice to enter now was absolutely clear

49:59that I couldn't say anything about Christianity or about Islam that had to

50:04be done by Christian thinkers and Muslim thinkers so what I was trying to do was

50:10to show Christians and Muslims that a Jew can do this it's a very

50:16self-critical text um we know that a lot of the Jewish

50:22Christian Bad Blood happened because of something known as supersessionist

50:28theology now a Jew cannot write about Christian supersessionist theology so I

50:33was asking myself and I began that book in 2003 I didn't finish it until

50:392015 it took me I re I wrote it four times but I was trying to say where can

50:47I find supersessionist theology in Judaism I find it very easily Vis A

50:52canites jebusites and perizzites but there are not a lot of you know activists on behalf of the jebusites

51:00these days you know so that didn't speak to people so and I thought about this

51:06for years and I suddenly realized that all those sibling rivalry narratives in

51:11Genesis are actually all supersession narratives because it's always the younger who's taking the place of the

51:17older and I said this is it if I can do an internal critique of those narratives

51:23and get us to see them a completely different way then I will have done this self-critical reconstructive

51:31theology within Judaism and I would hope this is a book that Christians and Muslims could read and find empowering

51:39because I've read enough books by Jews on anti-Semitism written by Jews read by

51:45Jews you know we do not move the world forward by complaining to our fellow

51:51Faith members about the way the world is treating us that's too easy it leads to

51:57self-pity and and and and and further estrangement so I thought can I write a

52:03book that can be read by Muslims and Christians so I had a friend called Ed

52:09Hussein who read this as a Muslim I have a friend uh up in St Andrews previously

52:16the bishop of Durham Tom Wright who's the world's greatest Pauline scholar who

52:22you know and of course I rewrote the book in the light of those but I I wrote it to be read by Christian and and

52:31Muslim thinkers and the most enthusiastic readers have been Christian and Muslim I

52:38don't know whether Jews like it very much probably not uh but the but you

52:43know I mean look you know isad Mani who is not the world's most typical Muslim

52:49but wrote a lovely review in the New York Times and various Christians did likewise and I have yeah I have a slight

52:56mischievous Theory why Christians and Muslims like the book more I think you're modeling one of the best outcomes

53:03of innerfaith dialogue if Interfaith dialogue works you can subcontract certain theological work to other Faith

53:09tradition that you can't do like only a faithful Jew can write a such a book and

53:15wrestle with God as a Muslim I can't use that kind of language I can't go there I

53:22can't like there is nothing in my religious DNA where I can where I can

53:27make those moves it'll undermine my very understanding of God which I'm not willing to do but I develop a love

53:35relationship with someone who I believe is a person of God in his authentic

53:40Judaism and jewishness he can do that work for us and we can just look from his shoulders and benefit and uh God

53:47chose Muslims because he wanted somebody to obey him God chose Jews because he

53:53wanted somebody to argue with him Christi and Christians cuz they ring more

54:00beautiful Bells than any Christians because you know we only

54:09touched a few souls and you touched many but Christianity touched more souls

54:15than any other movement in the whole of human civilization and they did so by speaking

54:22to the poor they did so by speaking to the rejected so you know I'm so thankful for what

54:30Christianity brought to the world I am so thankful for what Islam brought to the world there's absolutely no doubt if

54:37you want modeled what it is to have undiminished faith in the face of a

54:43secular and secularizing culture you have to go and sit with Muslims you know

54:48I'm sitting with a group of Muslims they will look at their watch and they say please forgive us we've got to go and

54:54pray they go and pray for 5 minutes they come back you know I keep saying could you please teach our lot to do that you

55:01know so each of the faiths has a magnificent achievement or set of

55:07achievements to uh thank God for and that the world has to thank them for so

55:13um as you know I take a group of Muslim leaders to Jerusalem at Shalom Hartman

55:19uh campus and it's a campus where in in the summer Rabbi Seager and Rabbi Graber

55:24also were there it's busy with a lot of religious Jews and religious Muslims but

55:30Muslims are in the Forefront just keep praying all the time like five times a day and that creates a beautiful scene

55:37and the kind of self-reflection on that on that campus about what about my prayer life yeah and you you know what

55:45we do it's the only thing that works it's a famous story you've told us stories let me tell a story a rabbi and

55:52an Israeli Taxi Driver leave this world at the same time and arrive at the Gates

55:58of Heaven and the angel looks at the rabbi and says sorry and he looks at the

56:03Israeli taxi driver and says up you go and the Rabbi says what I spent my whole

56:11life teaching God's word and this Taxi Driver spent his whole life driving like

56:18a lunatic exactly so said the angel when you spoke they slept but when he drove

56:25they [Laughter]

56:33right whatever whatever works

56:39sex I want to go back to your statement that the side by side builds

56:47friendship and the face Toof face is an elite activity but as someone who teaches

56:55people people who are going to be leading congregations I'm seeing in the last

57:03maybe 8 or 10 years what you might say is a less Elite interest in the

57:11Interfaith conversation increasingly my students ask me and I think ask Imam andley show

57:19us how to do this how do we get started with this so i' I'd like to ask both of

57:26you to reflect upon and maybe reflect upon some of the theological sticking

57:31points or the theological avenues that you see open for these kinds of

57:38conversations where would the ordinary congregation where might they begin well

57:45look um when I began you know I my rabbis and my I was head of the re

57:53my diim were happy for me to do this but they didn't really see it related to

58:00them um and then of course I began to realize how important it was so we began

58:06to teach all our congregational rabbis and they began to do it and im as you said they they began to

58:15love it because they began to have serious theological conversations that

58:20they couldn't always have with members of their congregation they began to love it and they began to do it very well

58:26and then since I was very much involved in the conference of European rabbis we work right across Europe and again you

58:34know the the mainland European ravinet looked to this as very strange because

58:39the Orthodox rabet was not a leader in this field and after a couple of years they asked us to put on a seminar for

58:47the whole Orthodox rabant in Europe so it spread and spread and spread and

58:53become very very very much something that everyone engages in and they feel it's incredibly

59:02valuable now I haven't done something with an Imam in in a synagogue but three

59:08weeks ago uh we had the number two in the Anglican Community the Archbishop of

59:14York John sentamu who's an old friend spend the whole of Shabbat with us from

59:20uhal shabat toah that's 25 hours uh and um this would I I suspect

59:28this has never happened before and I said John why do you want to do it and very interesting answer he said uh one

59:36of the greatest gifts you gave us was the Sabbath and we have lost it and you have

59:44kept it and I want to come and see how you keep it how did you keep it and the

59:51number of people who came to synagogue just to converse with this m i

59:57I don't mean actually during prayer although uh they say the art of conversation is dead no it's alive and

1:00:04well and happens in the middle of prayers in synagogue uh but but you know

1:00:10just to see people the the turnout for

1:00:15what was you know in anglo-jewish Orthodox terms quite unusual a rabbi and

1:00:20Archbishop talking together in the synagogue this was terrific and had you know I'd love to do it with an so I sign

1:00:28up yeah I sign up I think thank you for bringing such a positive note uh I don't

1:00:33want to be a Reign into our party but I think also uh the recent shift and

1:00:38changes of a lot of faith communities taking Interfaith a lot more seriously is also coming from a place of panic

1:00:46because things are not getting better um because PE voices of

1:00:51exclusion outside of our faith community also within our community is showing its

1:00:56ugly faces that people say um we have to we have to do something about this like I will never I've been receiving number

1:01:03of phone calls from our students I'm a Methodist minister in Trinity North Carolina I can't believe what my

1:01:08congregants are saying about Islam and Muslims can you come and talk to us or

1:01:14imams calling me from all over the country you seem to know something about Jews and Judaism can you come and run a

1:01:19two two week series about um Judaism and Jews because I can't believe things that

1:01:26I'm hearing in my in my own Community uh or there is a mosque and synagogue down

1:01:31the street uh we don't know how to engage we don't know how to even begin and even if we begin we don't know how

1:01:37to go beyond the first or second conversation like we get together eight homos what's next um a lot of guidance

1:01:44is required and needed and I think we have a moral responsibility as Faith

1:01:49leaders to model and exemplify what would that meaningful conversations would look like I I I I agree with you

1:01:56but at the same time you know we I I began all of this uh back

1:02:05in uh 2002 2003 when I began to

1:02:10notice that fear after 911 was turning all Faith communities

1:02:19Inward and I said when you see Faith communities turning inward you have to

1:02:25get get up and turn them outward um that's when I wrote my book to heal of fractured World which was

1:02:32sort of bringing back the universalism into Judaism and so on we must not be

1:02:38driven by Panic and it becomes terribly terribly important to give the notes of

1:02:44confidence to people um I don't I was once asked how would I

1:02:52sum up Judaism in one sentence and I said Judaism is the voice of Hope

1:02:59 in the conversation of humankind we have walked through the valley of the shadow

1:03:04 of death and we're still here and we're still singing so I think somehow or

1:03:11 other I see religious leaders as agents of

1:03:17 Hope because the worst politics are the politics of

1:03:22 fear and when fear takes hold and you know fear is much more powerful than any

1:03:29 positive emotion because it activates the amydala which is so much more

1:03:34 powerful than the lyic system which is more powerful than the prefrontal cortex

1:03:39 so when we're afraid we do crazy and destructive things so you know I spend

1:03:46my life Fighting Fear and telling people we can we can win this just relax Jews

1:03:53as you probably know feel very threatened on University campuses

1:03:58 throughout the world we've just had something called Israel aparte week and I not going to go into that but this is

1:04:05 scary you know for for my children and uh to to to to experience

1:04:12 anti-Semitism on campus which my youngest child did do and which I never did in my whole life

1:04:21 this is scary stuff so there's a lot of giving assurance and hope this is not

1:04:28 closing your eyes to the bad stuff but it is saying we we we have to be agents

1:04:35 of hope I can I can agree more and I think it's Rabbi nman who said There Is

1:04:41 No Greater sin other than the hopelessness one of the Grave consequences of fear it pushes people to

1:04:48 hopelessness and despair and in in Islam hopelessness and not believing in God is

1:04:54 considered as equal because if you believe in an higher authority you can never be hopeless

1:05:01 absolutely no one wants to end this conversation but I know that there are a

1:05:06 lot of people who would like to join the conversation and we perhaps have a moment we have time for a couple of

1:05:13 questions Noah pick us will you lead us in that we have very little time the rabbi is on a tight schedule the good

1:05:19 news is that you can come back tomorrow night at 5:30 at the Sanford School of

1:05:25 public policy for the rabbis talk based on his recent book not in God's name on

1:05:31 Rel uh confronting religious violence we have two gems here in our

1:05:37 community Imam anley and Professor Davis who will stay with us happily for uh

1:05:44 many years to come and we have Rabbi Sachs who is visiting again and we're so

1:05:49 grateful to you uh for coming and for being part of this conversation and we

1:05:54 will see all of of you tomorrow night I hope at 5:30 at the Sanford School of

1:05:59 Public Policy thank you what