Episode 2: A Letter in the Scroll (Part 2)

Tanya: I'm Dr. Tanya White and this is Books & Beyond: The Rabbi Sacks Podcast, a series dedicated to exploring four of Rabbi Jonathan Sacks most powerful ideas from four of his most influential books. Each episode features distinguished leaders and prominent voices from the Jewish world in dialogue with his teachings.

Whether you're a devoted admirer, or new to his work, this podcast offers inspiration and insight for these challenging times. 

You're listening to episode two of Books & Beyond. In our last episode, we explored A Letter in the Scroll, also known as Radical Then, Radical Now. We labelled it "The Call", as Rabbi Sacks frames Judaism as an invitation to join the unique and ongoing story of our people.

The book tackles three core questions. Who am I? Who are we? And Why should I continue my people's story? In this episode, we dive deeper into these themes, examining Jewish identity, the challenges of our post-7.10 world, the crisis of apathy and assimilation, and the urgent need to revitalize Judaism for modern times.

We follow Rabbi Sacks's journey of discovery, his own unique Jewish identity, and we will hear from three esteemed voices in the Jewish world. Natan Sharansky, Sivan Rahav Meir, and Rabbi Dr. Meir Soloveichik, who will share their perspectives on how the ideas in this book can help us confront and navigate today's challenges. 

If there is one thing we can say about Rabbi Sacks' legacy, it is that he taught us Jews living in the 21st century how to tell our story. Because like Lin Manuel Miranda, he believed that a person's legacy is only as enduring as those who carry it forward and tell it.

For him, Judaism's strength lies in those who embrace its call and share its story with the world. In ancient times, the circumstances of our birth defined our lives. Today, in a post modern Western culture, many believe that those conditions have little to no bearing on our future. We live in a world where we're free to choose almost anything.

Identity is fluid, constantly evolving, and the past feels increasingly distant and irrelevant. Against this backdrop, many wonder, why should my Jewish heritage matter? This book, Radical Then, Radical Now, (or A Letter in the Scroll), is Rabbi Sacks' powerful response to that question. And that imperative to teach us how to tell our story so that it remains alive and dynamic is part of the reason, according to his brother, Alan Sacks, why he admired Lin Manuel Miranda and his musical production, Hamilton, so much. 

Alan: It's the history of dead white men. And my brother admired the fact that Miranda managed to make it exciting, vibrant, incredibly attractive to a young and diverse audience. He has a black man playing George Washington and so on. It's multicultural, it's lively, it's hip hop. And he thought this was genius because it takes something which is dull, old, unheard of, and makes it an exciting thing, which is what my brother lehavdil would like to do, or would have liked to do, and did do successfully with, his Judaism.

Tanya: It is this profound call and sacred responsibility that Rabbi Sacks outlines in this book. He calls on every Jew to remember that they are a letter in a scroll. Each playing a vital part in a larger story. Far from being as Marx once described an opium for the masses, Rabbi Sacks argues that Judaism is a radical protest against the status quo.

It's a tradition grounded in the dignity of each person and their freedom. When the world, our castle, is on fire, he reminds us we share a responsibility to help extinguish the flames, together, in covenant with God and community. In our first episode, we explored how this book feels like a deeply personal letter, from Rabbi Sacks to his younger self.

It addresses profound questions of Jewish identity and pride, the distinction between thin and thick identities and the balance between freedom and responsibility. A pivotal moment in Rabbi Sacks's journey was his own transition from being a Jew by chance to a Jew by choice, from fate to faith. That transformative moment came in 1967. 

Rabbi Sacks: We were all caught up with this incredible fear and trauma. And then, you know, miraculously, six days, it was over. But I was left with this afterthought. It's true I'd been to Israel just a few weeks earlier. But what made all of us feel so connected?

With a nation thousands of miles away, most of whose population we'd never met. This was not a religion in an ordinary sense. This was not Judaism like Christianity or Islam or whatever it was that I grew up with, you know, the kind of thing you do in a house of worship and, and at home. All of a sudden this was about peoplehood, about connection, about history, about hate, about goodness knows what.

I mean, we had been there in one of the most extraordinary moments of Jewish history. It wasn't just me, it changed. It changed all of the Soviet Jews, people like Natan and Avital Sharansky. All of them were suddenly had something kindled and you wanted to know what is this thing? 

Tanya: It did indeed profoundly change the trajectory of Natan Sharansky's life, whose story has become a symbol of resilience, courage, and the fight for freedom. Born in the Soviet Union, Sharansky became a refusenik, a Jew denied the right to emigrate to Israel. His activism for Jewish immigration and human rights led to his arrest by the KGB in 1977 and he was sentenced to 13 years in prison.

During those gruelling years, his wife, Avital, and Jews around the world rallied for his release, making his cause a powerful emblem of Jewish solidarity and the universal struggle for human rights. In 1986, after nearly a decade of imprisonment, Sharansky was finally freed and made Aliyah to Israel. Since then, his life has been one of active service and unwavering devotion to the people of Israel.

He shared a deep connection with Rabbi Sacks and now serves as chair of the global advisory board of the Rabbi Sacks legacy. I asked him about the turning point that forever transformed his life.

Natan Sharansky: It's really interesting to see how 1967, the Six Day War, was like a turning point for rediscovering identity for many Jews in the free world, like in case of Lord Sacks, and how at the same time it was really turning point, which brought to discovery of our identity, for many of us in the Soviet Union.

Because I really was absolutely deprived of any Jewish identity. We grew having no bar mitzvah, no brit milah, we didn't have such words. No Pesach, no Purim, of course no synagogue, no Jewish book, no place where you get Jewish book. Nothing, zero. And the only Jewish thing which, existed in our life was anti semitism.

So it was like disease that you have to learn how to live with this, and how to survive and to succeed in spite of this disease. So your identity, it's kind of, something very problematic, but, you really has to be, responsible of the history of your people by making career in spite of anti semitism. That's what Jews were doing for a thousand years, in spite of hate, succeeded.

And, of course, so that is a life without identity, without freedom, in fact, was very restricted, was very, I would say, boring life. You don't even understand, don't realise how boring and how unhappy this life is. And to think maybe you will start fighting for your freedom, for your right to say what you really think, and not to pretend, not to play all the time this role of loyal Soviet citizen. You're not thinking about it, because why to take risk? There are no values in your life except of the value of professional success. And then came the war of 1967.

And then, suddenly you see, even if you don't realise in the first moments all the historic importance of this war. How you Jews did it, you understand, whether you want it or not, but for these people you're connected to this story.

And you understand that if you agree, there is family. And above all this, there is the state of Israel, which is fighting wars for you even today. That's how we discovered our identity. And the moment you really discover your identity, the moment it turns from kind of disease into such a great thing that you want that it will be yours, then you are really find strength to fight for your rights, for rights of other Jews, and for the freedom for everybody.

So from the moment when you realise it, to the moment when you're really ready to go to fight, and to throw away all your success of that life, all the meaning of the life which you had after this, and to become a "refusenik" and prisoner of Zion. So it took like five years, but definitely this process started from, the Six Day War.

What they recognise, and you are not yet ready to recognise, that there is really a very deep connection and it puts you into a very different story. Then I didn't think about the images of the letter and the scroll. But the fact that, now you can be part of this absolutely amazing story, and it all depends on you, you simply have to decide. So, yes, that's how it happens.

Tanya: Rabbi Jonathan Sacks grew up in the UK, the child of refugees who had built a comfortable life in England. Raised in a warm, traditional Jewish home, Judaism was woven into the fabric of his family's identity, a source of pride, though not something he had yet deeply explored. For Natan Sharansky, raised as a secular Jew in the Soviet Russia, Jewish identity felt like a burden, a stigma to overcome if one hoped to succeed, a chronic condition to be endured.

Then, in 1967, something changed. The Six Day War had an electrifying effect on Jews across the globe, including two in particular in London and Moscow, respectively. Many who had previously felt indifferent or ambivalent towards their Jewish identity found themselves drawn to it in unexpected ways. They began asking questions, uncovering a depth and strength in their heritage they had never fully realised.

For both Sacks and Sharansky, this pivotal moment would spark a journey of self discovery and purpose, leading them to embrace a Jewish identity far more compelling than they could have ever imagined. Today, following the tragic events of 7.10, we are witnessing a similar awakening among Jews around the world.

Many who have once felt detached or distanced from their heritage are rediscovering their Jewish identity with renewed urgency and commitment. Faced with rising antisemitism and a moment of profound vulnerability, there is a stirring, a reconnection with roots, a resurgence of pride, and a collective reawakening of the ties that bind Jews together across the globe.

In moments of crisis, identity can become a source of strength. And like Sacks and Sharansky, countless Jews are once again discovering that their heritage is a powerful wellspring of resilience and unity. 

A letter in the scroll is a timeless offering to every Jew, relevant at all times, but perhaps especially today.

In it, Rabbi Sacks explores the essence of Jewish identity, the mission of the Jewish people, and the delicate space between fate, the identity we're born into, shaped by history, and sometimes imposed upon us, and destiny, the identity we choose, the mission we embrace to shape the future of our people.

Rabbi Sacks calls this tension fate and faith, the difference between being the chosen people, and the choosing people. As we discussed in the previous episode with Dr. Erica Brown, Rabbi Sacks addresses profound questions of Jewish identity in a world that often feels post identity, where the collective sense of nationhood and shared mission can feel obscured.

He asks how Judaism, and indeed religion as a whole, can serve as a voice of moderation, protest, reason and transcendence in the modern world. Yet rather than presenting this as a detached philosophical argument, he offers it in a seamless narrative, a manifesto for Jewish continuity, an issue that was very important to him and central to many of his initiatives in his years as Chief Rabbi.

Joanna: He was absolutely petrified that Anglo Jewry would follow America. Because that's generally, what happens, we could be 10, 15 years behind. And he felt very strongly that if he didn't bring Anglo Jewry to - almost to its senses - we had, there was a massive advertising campaign, to start continuity on its travels.

And one of them was, I had, young adult, young Jewish adults walking off a cliff. And he said, if we continue the trajectory that we're going, we're losing 10 Jews a day. And we have been doing so for 40 years. And then he had, there was another advert with an ostrich with its head buried in the sand.

And he needed to shake the community and say, wake up. You need good education. You need a Jewish pride, Jewish understanding. We need to create a community of knowledgeable young Jews who can lead the community into the future. And he felt it was his responsibility to bring the community back to its senses and stop thinking about the wonderful world that we used to live in and the glory days of the "Haim", but actually how can we be a strong Jewish community to move into the future.

Tanya: You just heard from Joanna Benarroch. Joanna was Rabbi Sacks' right hand, his personal assistant for decades, and after his passing, she became the founding chief executive of the Rabbi Sacks Legacy. Few are as well placed as Joanna to help us understand the context and motivations behind many of Rabbi Sacks books.

So this book was an offering to young Jews. A way of connecting them with their rich and compelling legacy. As Joanna explains, the challenge Rabbi Sacks was addressing in 2001 was the challenge of apathy and assimilation. Today, two decades later, though the challenge may feel different, the themes and ideas explored in the book still have surprising resonance and intersect with this pivotal moment in our history.

To understand this connection, I spoke with two leading voices. One from Israel, the other from the diaspora, who had personal relationships with Rabbi Sacks and whose teachings reflect his values and vision.

Sivan Rahav Meir is a household name in Israel amongst secular and religious alike. She's a leading journalist, media personality and lecturer who brings Torah ideas into mainstream Israeli discourse. She was voted Israel's most popular female media personality by Globes and named one of the 50 most influential Jews in the world by the Jerusalem Post. Constantly navigating diverse sectors of Israeli society, I was curious to hear what she views as the most pressing challenge facing Israeli Jews today

Sivan Rahav Meir: Rabbi Sacks always mentioned assimilation, you know, and apathy in the diaspora. Here it's different, but maybe it's, yeah, it's the same challenge of making, Jewish values alive, embracing our Jewish identity and creating unity.

Not just unity because Hamas hates us because they want to kill us. It's because we're Jews. It's not a passive unity. I would say it's an active, meaningful unity around Jewish, Jewish life. We are now writing an historic chapter in our history.

You don't have to be Rabbi Sacks in order to identify you need Jewish spirit and you need a Jewish unity in order to, to win and to, to prosper here. So in a way, yeah, I, I don't know when, no one today is a prophet, but I think what he did, giving us so many tools, about how Judaism should be uplifting, inspiring, interesting, young, vibrant.

Everything is now, I see it as a journalist. I cover Israel for 30 years, even more, because I started when I was really young. Never, really, I never saw in such a clear way how people desperately need it. They need Jewish values, they need I would say Jewish glasses, in order to get the right perspective and understand the bigger story.

I think one of the problems, maybe it's a Jewish problem. Nobody's dealing with their own problems and we, we really like to solve others. You know, whenever I come to a Jewish community outside of Israel, someone can really ask me about the Haredim.

Now, the ultra orthodox sector, now we're there in Milwaukee. I'm asking him, okay, what's the percentage of a assimilation here? How many kids get Jewish education? Unfortunately, the majority, you know, just give me the, the, the number of, of Jews here that visited, you know, the majority of the Jews outside of Israel, they never visited Israel. 

But why aren't we facing with the local problems there? You can be much more helpful,. And also in Israel sometimes all we can say about Jews outside of Israel, make Aliyah. It's worth nothing. Everything you do, you're not a real Zionist, make Aliyah. No, it's so sensitive and it's so complicated.

And people are really ambassadors of Israel right now. How can you be so superficial? You know, the Haredi go to the army, Jews abroad, make Aliyah. We are much more, I would say, we're smarter and, I would say, things are much deeper than just shouting slogans. And, unfortunately, since I was in Tel Aviv on, you know, the Yom Kippur before Simchat Torah, I was there at Dizengoff Square.

I saw things, I will never, I think maybe, you know, in a with my family, with the kids, with my husband, but I, I, I do not talk about it publicly. I saw things, I felt, I felt what I saw there is dangerous and unfortunately I was right. I didn't know, you know, but a few days later when we were fighting each other, it's not about dispute, we can have disputes.

You know, I have my ideology. You can support the right or the left. You can think the secular left, they're wrong. You can think the right wing, they're too extreme. Their imagination about the, you know, the redemption is too extreme. And the settlers are crazy. And you can think the Haredi are extreme.

How come you don't join us? The volume, that's the question, the, the, the energy you put in, what I saw a week before the war in Tel Aviv, in Dizengoff Square, and I will never forget it, and I think, in a deeper way, that's the reason. It's not because God said, oh, you've ruined Kol Nidre in Tel Aviv, which is really something unforgettable and unspeakable you've ruined it. Oh now I will send Hamas I think that we are when we're stuck we can't see the real enemy because we think our fellow Jew is the real enemy So I don't want to go back into hating each other. I want us to speak not to shout and I want us to discuss not to hate. And I wanted to discuss with each other when you have when you post something on Facebook And it's just your friends your echo chamber it's you, and it's just against the Haredi, Mitnachel, it can be against the Kibbutznikim, the left secular, I believe, for them. The main, you know, the families that are now suffering, Kibbutz Kfar Aza, Kibbutz Nachal Oz, Kibbutz Be'eri. How can I tell them something right now? Yeah. Their ideology, they always voted for Meretz and the Labor Party, they were always there.

I can't come to them right now and tell them, oh you were wrong, it's your mistake. It's because of what your ideology. Look at what you did. It's not I don't know. We have to do it in a smarter way. We can't go back to October 6th and it's, it's a challenge. That's the real challenge. As Jews, I think Rabbi Sacks will really help us out.

I disagree. I will never hate you. Let's talk and I will never write something about you. I will talk to you, find a Haredi friend, find a 'Chiloni' secular friend, find a settler. Really the extreme. Go to the hills. Go to the most extreme settlement, to the most extreme yeshiva and to the most extreme kibbutz and talk to them.

I think that's our part of our responsibility today, and it's part of the Jewish unity. Maybe once again, maybe I'm naive and maybe I'm, you know, but I hope it's not too political. That's my belief.

Tanya: Sivan identifies the dual challenges currently facing the Jewish people as the challenge of Jewish unity in a polarized society, and the challenge of a rich, meaningful Jewish identity. She frames these challenges through a concept used by both Rabbi Sacks and Natan Sharansky, originally envisioned by the leading voice in modern orthodoxy in the post war years, Rabbi Joseph Soloveichik. The dynamic between being a people of fate and a people of destiny.

This shift moves from a Jewish identity defined by external circumstances and reactive forces to one that is consciously chosen, defined positively by vision and purpose. In our conversation, Natan Sharansky expressed this dynamic in a deeply personal and poignant way.

Natan Sharansky: If we speak about the move from the identity of faith to Covenant of Destiny, I think it happened not after I was released from prison. It happened before because, just as I tried to explain, the only way to feel my Jewish identity before 1967 was exactly this Covenant of Faith.

So this, uh, story of persecutions and the, our need to resist to them, to fight for our survival in spite of the Jewish hatred, that was the connection. The difference that we have one faith, and the faith which demands from us to be strong, small against big, David against Goliath, have to fight for your physical survival.

Today it means that you have to, get to the best universities, in spite of all the restrictions that they are doing. That's what I can call the covenant of faith. And then when suddenly you discover that you can be part of much bigger story, and if you're part of the story, when you finally have enough courage to say to the Soviet leaders, I really don't want to live in this country, I don't want to belong to your story, I want to go to Israel, I want to be part of Jewish people.

Of course, it changes all your life, and you lose your work, all your status, you're interrogated, you, whatever. But you suddenly feel yourself free. And in this freedom, because you say what you think, you live history that you want to live, and you feel this great solidarity, not the struggle for survival, but in the struggle to guarantee the continuation of our story.

That's the moment of moving from the fate to destiny. And in prison, of course, if I didn't have this, feeling of our being involved in such a powerful story and you want to remain part of it, I would never be able to, to resist to KGB and to choose, as they were saying to me, choose between death and life, or you will stay alive, but you will cooperate with us, or you will be killed.

And you have to explain to yourself that there is meaning only in your life, in accordance with this destiny, as long as you are, continue this struggle. So, that's why after I was released from prison, it was only natural that I'll continue that life of this being part of this unique historic struggle, not simply for physical survival, but for successful survival as Jewish people, Jewish civilizations, Jewish identity, as Jews who can continue making tikkun olam, making this world a better place.

So for me, it was. decision before the prison to move from, identity as a disease to identity as, the great privilege of being part of this story. It happened before, it helped me to fight before, it helped me to fight in prison, it was only natural that I continue doing it until this day.

Tanya: Sharansky speaks about his fight in prison and the strength he drew from actively choosing to be part of his people's story. For him, Judaism was no longer a burden or a chronic condition, but an eternal narrative of a people with a rich history, profound values, and enduring principles. Something he wanted to be deeply connected to.

This powerful sense of identity is evident in Israel today, where so many young men and women are risking their lives on the front lines. Yet Sivan is concerned that the fractures and extreme polarization that existed before 7.10 still linger beneath the surface. Using the imagery of the burning palace from the Midrash where Avraham sees the evil in the world, a concept Rabbi Sacks draws on in his book, she challenges us to ask hard questions.

Sivan Rahav Meir: First of all, identifying the burning palace. The burning palace is now in Be'eri. We saw it burning. The burning palace is there at the Nova site. The burning palace is now at the encampment movement in campuses all over the world. The burning palace is at the north in Kiryat Shmona with evacuees, people that are displaced for more than a year.

The burning palace is wherever you see hatred and wherever you see ultimate evil. Identifying the real enemy, that's the first, I would say, step, the first stage. No Jew is an enemy. It could be completely unaffiliated Jew from the left, from the right, ultra Orthodox, secular, from the kibbutz, from the settlement, we are not enemies.

So first of all, I think most of us will never see ourselves as enemies again, okay I believe most Israelis and, and the Jews around the world. That's the first message. Now, what do we do?

Okay, when you see the burning palace, when you understand there's someone, first of all, understanding there is a creator, a creator. Ani hu ba'al habira. Someone created this world. Someone made this fire. And it's a sign. It's a message. Now, what's the message? I still think it's early, one year, you know, for us as in Israel, while the war still goes on, I think you, we need to, you know, in a few years, we will see, oh, that trend, that process, that thing, it stopped, it started, it's still too, too early, and we're, we're still facing the challenge.

But I think we can see, you know, the, the seeds, the first answers are already written. So one, as I said, Jewish unity. Two, I would say Olam Chesed Yibaneh, there's a spiritual iron dome of chesed, of kindness, of charity from all over the world. Jews are doing things, what Rabbi Sacks called active responsibility, just like Avraham Avinu when he saw your, when you see something you become a witness, you become a shalich.

You have a mission, you have a task. If you were there, I just interviewed, you know, I'm not just a, just a huge philosopher. I'm not a, you know, such a, a thinker, but I'm a journalist. I cover, I interview hundreds, thousands of people. I just interviewed the Nova survivors. We had the Shabbaton in Yerushalayim.

There's a beautiful thing. They come to Yerushalayim once a month, and they all keep Shabbat together. They want to keep Shabbat, no coercion, no politics. 

So I asked one of them on the stage, I asked one of them, you saw ultimate evil. She stopped me. She said, no, I saw God. I saw God and I saw his good people that he sent to me for rescue for saving me. That's her perspective. Yeah, her friends were killed and kidnapped But now she is the way after a year God sent her good people and they took her out of this scene and she didn't it's not ultimate evil.

So the way we tell the story I really learned a lot from this Nova survivor. It means a lot like "ani hu ba'al habira". You see the burning palace Now, what do you do? So we can all take, really, it's a beautiful example, I think. So, we mentioned chesed, we mentioned unity, and for sure we must mention Torah. Torah learning for Rabbi Sacks, Jewish education, unfortunately, sometimes in Israel, you don't get Jewish education.

Once again, I'll answer as a journalist, not as a philosopher. One of the families, the bereaved families, they were sitting here Shiva. A friend of mine was there. We saw the miserable mother, just lost her son. And he, very, I would say, secular family. Now he turned to them, this guy, a religious guy, he told the mother, he said, do you know your son is now in the higher place up there in heaven? The higher, all the tzaddikim, the righteous people, the Rabbis, the Sages, he is in a higher position, it's called harugei malchut. Those who were killed just because they were Jews, it's the highest level of, really, of heroism, of bravery, you can reach up there. She looked at him and you saw in a way the word nechama, comfort. You saw how he really makes her feel better, explaining her the context. She said I've never heard of it. It's the fifth or sixth day we're sitting shiva, no one told me. I was, you know, I was so in my personal tragedy and he in five minutes he gave her a shiur, really Rabbi Sacks concept of you know, the bigger story, the message, you lost your son, but you're part of a bigger nation. The meaning of being, becoming such a high, you know, high level up there, what he did for us, Jews from all over the world, look around you, they come. Why? It's not a personal story. We don't know him. We know him because he's our brother. He did, he did something for us. In five minutes, this lady never, never heard the concept of everything he said was for her brand new. And I looked at this shiur and I said, we need to not with, not just in tragedies, Jewish education, Jewish knowledge, that's the basic. I think it helps, it heals people. 

Tanya: From Sivan's perspective, the urgent challenge of today, the burning palace, so to speak, is the evil and barbarism, we witnessed unleashed on October the 7th, along with the unprecedented rise in anti Semitism around the world.

She wants us like Avraham before us to ask difficult questions. What is burning? How can I help extinguish it? And most importantly, why should I even try? Why should I fight for my people and my values? What are my values? Why am I putting my life on the line? And for what? These questions lie at the heart of our covenant of destiny.

A call to engage not only with the story we inherit, but also with the mission we choose to uphold. Our most immediate response must be the physical battle for survival. But to her mind there's also uniquely Jewish response to fight evil with good, barbarism with chesed compassion. This compassion means embracing each Jew where they are, regardless of their political views, meeting them with curiosity, rather than with accusation. Understanding that we are all part of this story and this mission together.

Rabbi Sacks explores this dynamic in the book. In chapter nine, he discusses two ways individuals unite into a community with its own identity.

One is the path of shared history, collective memory, common ancestry, origins, past struggles. This is the community of fate, an "Am", a nation that's defined by looking backwards. It's shaped by what's happened to us. But there's also a different kind of identity. One that doesn't only look back, but looks forward.

It's an identity shaped by shared ideals. A vision, not only for survival, but also for purpose. It's a community of faith an "Eidah", a body politic united by a common mission, values, virtues, and answering a call to shape the future. So how do we move from being a community of fate to becoming a community of faith and destiny?

How do we form a vision that calls us forward, especially in times like we are in today? I asked Sivan if she found inspiration in Rabbi Sacks' work for shaping her vision for the Jewish people in this critical moment.

Sivan Rahav Meir: I'm going to answer you with, let's zoom out, you know, let's look at things from a bird's eye view. You know, even in our generation, I covered so many, unfortunately, terror attacks and wars as a journalist. You know, I've seen how the question of evil and suffering repeatedly challenges our faith and in a way, and that's really remarkable, and I think that's what Rabbi Sacks captured so well, is that throughout Jewish history, throughout Jewish history, always we've responded to evil, not with despair, but with hope.

With increased, I would say, dedication to our mission. That's the concept of Tikva, of hope. That's the key word, the guiding word in his work, and I think that's the key word today in Israel. Look at what happened after the holocaust, three years later, out of the ashes israel was founded. Look at every crisis he shows how every time " ka'asher ya'anu oto ken yirbeh v'chen yifrotz'. Every challenge made us even better. So yeah, I've witnessed, you know countless examples of Israelis now and Jews all over the world Responding to I would say unimaginable evil with acts of strength, 'koach' 'chizuk' 'emunah' 'chessed' unity more resilience. I think the answer of you know it's not a theological question, you know, it's not like people are are sitting here asking deep questions We don't have the time for that, you know people just they give relevant answers. Wherever you are people built they create they heal you see the doctors you see what's going on in the agriculture, you see the hi-tech industry, you see people learning Torah, you see the music, look at the playlist, okay?

Israel now, I think, really, in history, 100 years ago, people will research what's going on in this Israeli spirit of, of, you know, it's not a theoretical discussion of the problem of evil. Every morning, when you wake up, when you prepare the, I don't know, the sandwich for kindergarten kids going here in Yerushalayim, I see them out of my window.

Sometimes kids from Kiryat Shmona, our neighbors, listen, I look at them, they just started the second year in Yerushalayim. Out of Kiryat Shmona, the city in the north, they're here, displaced? No, they are placed. In Israel, in Yerushalayim, lots of help, the municipality, the neighborhoods, people volunteer, they started new schools, new teachers, lots of, you know, the circumstances, but the way every morning you see them, and they go to school, in a way, it's, that's also bravery, that's also, victory. I had a conversation with a bus driver, I felt like I got a real shiur, a real lesson of emunah, of, Jewish, you know, identity and, and, you know, growing out of challenges.

So wherever you look, and still we're facing problems, I don't want to be naive and not really connected to all the problems we're facing together. I must mention our brothers and sisters in diaspora. But the question is, as you said, ultimate evil. It must make us better. It must make us more connected. The slogan in Israel is "beyachad nenatzeach" together will defeat. We will win. Everyone 'beyachad' I say 'beyachad' means with Hashem and with the Torah. With God and with the text He gave us, with the instructions He gave us. That's also Beyachad, it's also together. And I believe that's you know, long term. When you read the news, you know, every morning, there's a sentence we say in Israel, that every evening at 8 they say good evening, and then they prove to you for an hour why it's not a good one.

So you can, every day you can, decide you're really, miserable and, out of doing nothing really. You can choose, pessimism, but I, I believe most Israelis choose optimism and, you know, in year, we'll be proud in 10, 20 years, we'll really be proud of what we're creating right now.

Tanya: Sivan has shared some incisive insights into the challenges of Jewish identity and the response to the Jewish core within the Israeli context. But I was curious about the parallel story in the diaspora. To gain a deeper understanding, I turned to one of America's most influential religious leaders and foremost Jewish thinkers, Rabbi Dr. Meir Soloveichik, a nephew of Rabbi Joseph Soloveichik, who we mentioned earlier. He refers to 1967 and the terms of covenant of fate and destiny as orienting the reality on the ground in the diaspora in a post 7.10 world.

Meir Soloveichik: Both Rabbi Sacks and I are extremely fond of the quote from the Jewish essayist Milton Himmelfarb, who wrote right after the Six Day War, something like, every Jew individually knows how normal he or she is, but taken together, we seem to be caught up in something much greater than ourselves. And then Himmelfarb adds, the number of Jews in the world is smaller than a small statistical error in the Chinese census. And yet we remain bigger than our numbers. Great things seem to happen around us and to us. Now, what occurred on and after October 7th, first of course the horrific events, the horrific assaults in Israel, and then the explosion of anti semitism in college quads and some city streets, utilizing Rav Soloveichik's terms and Rabbi Sacks terms, we could say that was for some an introduction to the covenant of fate.

There were Jews that had thought that this was not something they would have to face at all. But I do think that in the weeks and months that followed, and you see this in a variety of ways, but especially in a re embrace of some form of Jewish observance.

We see Jews rediscovering the covenant of destiny, or the covenant of faith. 

Meir Soloveichik: I think that the root of it is, They, too, begin to wonder, like Himmelfarb, how are we to understand this story?

Why are the eyes of the world on the Jewish people, for good and for ill? From those who admire Jews and from those who respond in a very different way? And what they're starting to realize is that this story is not normal. It's not the normal story of a people. I always pair the Milton Himmelfarb quote with a quote from the southern American writer, Walker Percy. This is, this is not a quote that Rabbi Sacks utilized, but I like to think that he would have if it had become part of his repertoire. And, what Walker Percy said was something like, why are there Jews today if there are no Hittites, even though the Hittites were a mighty empire when the Jews were a small people?

And then Percy adds, when you meet a Jew on the streets of London or Melbourne or New York, it is remarkable that nobody finds the event remarkable. What are they doing here? And then he adds, but it is even more remarkable if there are Jews here, why are there no Hittites? Where are the Hittites? Show me one Hittite in New York City.

And I do think that there are more Jews pondering this question today. This question is at the heart of Jewish thought. My own view, Jewish thought begins with this question. and it's a question that's being asked by a lot of Jews. And they are searching for an answer. I think, for some Jews that are searching, A Letter in the Scroll will provide them with a right of response.

Tanya: All of our guests refer to the idea of fate and destiny in different ways, of a Jewish identity that is both inherited and chosen. As we've noted, A Letter in the Scroll is a book that delves into this very question of Jewish identity. 20 years ago, Rabbi Sacks recognized the challenges of a post identity culture, a challenge that feels even more pressing today.

The question many ask is, why choose to be a Jew? In Israel, as Sivan and Natan highlight, the question takes on a different tone. It's not so much about whether to be Jewish, but about the kind of Jewish identity one chooses, the type of Jewish state that can be built together from the diverse sectors in Israeli society.

In the diaspora, however, where assimilation and apathy are on the rise, identities become fluid, even outdated. Bonds of association to the past, to religion, to peoplehood, along with the responsibility to a story that predates us, are often seen as outdated. The question is perhaps slightly different. 

For Rabbi Sacks, being born Jewish is no accident. It's the result of choices made by generations before us, by ancestors who embraced their Jewish identity and passed it down to their children. In a world that celebrates detachment and views the individual as a free floating atom, Judaism stands as a counter protest. The extraordinary story of continuity, and covenantal bonds that stretch across history.

So why should a Jew in America today continue that story? I asked Rabbi Soloveichik for his perspective and how this book by Rabbi Sacks possibly shapes his answer.

Meir Soloveichik: The reason why A Letter in the Scroll speaks so profoundly to the challenges philosophically facing much of American Jewry is because Rabbi Sacks understands that the great counter cultural element of Judaism in the post modern age is the Torah's approach to identity. As Rabbi Sacks notes, all too often, the assumption today about identity is, and I think these are his words, is you are whatever you want to be, and you can assume an entirely different identity, because the focus is entirely on the individual, and the identity of the individual is something that the individual, him or herself, can construct.

And the way Rabbi Sacks puts it is that Judaism is actually a response or a critique of this entire approach because as he puts it, one note cannot be a piece of music. One brush, of paint cannot be a work of art. The part has meaning, he writes in terms of the larger whole. And while on the one hand, Judaism, of course offers each one of us a life of meaning as individuals, but the individuality we discover is our role within the larger story of, something much larger than ourself. And of course, that's why the title, at least in America, A letter in the Scroll, is so resonant. I'll mention, how Rabbi Sacks once said to me that, the reason why in America the book was titled A Letter in the Scroll, but in, in Britain the title was something wholly different, Radical Then Radical Now, is because, as I believe he put it, in America, Jews read my books, in Britain, non Jews read my books.

And he said, you know, if you say the phrase, a letter in the scroll to a Jew, they instantly understand what that means. But in the non Jewish world, what's a scroll? A scroll is such an outdated concept. Even books are a little old, let alone scrolls. And that actually, in an interesting way, speaks to the very counter cultural nature of Judaism. Because to be a letter in the scroll is, of course, to discover your place in the whole. And that, I think, is the central and most important thesis of this book by Rabbi Sacks. And you'll recall how he describes the postmodern approach to identity as being in a library, which in the digital age may be a slightly outmoded image, but as someone who likes libraries, it's very resonant to me. He says that for many life can be walking through a library. You pick one book, you read it, you pick another book, you go to one stack, you go to one set of stacks, you go to another set of stacks. But then Rabbi Sacks says, suppose you come upon a book, which you open, and as you read it, you realize that you are reading the story of your family. And then suddenly you get to an empty page which has your name at the top. And the question is, can you treat that book like any other, and just close it, put it back, and just pick another book?

And for Rabbi Sacks, the answer is obviously no. Because this makes, this calls out to you. Now, that's a wonderful. analogy, and to it I would only add the following. What if that book contains the most remarkable story in the history of the world?

And that's really the challenge that A Letter in the Scroll is giving us. For Rabbi Sacks. the question is, do you put that book away, or do you add to the book and become that letter, knowing, as is the case with a letter in the Torah. That in a metaphysical way, the story at large may be impacted by your very choice. That, I think, is the heart of it.

Tanya: Rabbi Sacks believed that humans are naturally social beings, wired for connection and community rather than solitary existence. He was deeply influenced by communitarian thinkers such as Alistair MacIntyre and Michael Sandel, who highlighted the limits of individualism and the essential role that communities play in nurturing a moral life.

Throughout his life, Rabbi Sacks often spoke about how others had shaped his life. His wife Elaine, who as he said, helped him move beyond his thoroughly unpleasant phase of student angst. A stranger who saved him from drowning in Italy on his honeymoon. And of course, as we've mentioned many times, the realization in 1967 of his profound connection to the Jewish people.

This conviction in the power of relationships lies at the heart of one of the central pillars of Rabbi Sacks thought, the idea of covenant. He draws on its biblical origins as a source of its principles. Covenant for Rabbi Sacks is a mechanism of association that on the one hand honors the individuality of each partner, but at the same time, fosters trust and commitment towards a shared vision.

In chapter seven of the book, he writes, the covenantal bond is the only way of reconciling freedom with association. It allows us to make marriages, families, communities, and ultimately societies built on the recognition of our independence and our interdependence. The covenant, whether it's the bond between the Jewish people and God, across generations, or among individuals, addresses a profound human need for companionship and belonging.

At the same time, it upholds the mandate for freedom and individuality, values central to our modern age and our identity. Rabbi Soloveichik offered his own perspective on this concept, drawing from his uniquely American view on how covenant shapes community and identity.

Meir Soloveichik: As I've argued in print, one of the surest signs of this can actually be found in some of the anti Israel and anti semitic demonstrations that we see. Because all too often, what is taking place there is not only a demonstration of anti Israel hate, anti Jew hate, but also a demonstration of hatred for America, for the exceptional nature of America. There are many of these demonstrations where the American flag is desecrated. And that means that these people somehow elementally understand, that as Rabbi Sacks has argued elsewhere, the covenantal nature of the Jewish story was something that inspired the covenantal way in which America saw and for millions of Americans continue to see itself.

And these haters of Jews, haters of Israel, hate this about America too. So for me, applying A Letter in the Scroll and its thesis to American Jews is really to ask American Jews to discover their identity, not only as Jews, but as American. And that's an argument that I've made in the past many months.

Rabbi Sacks has helped me make because, and these are Rabbi Sacks' words, Israel ancient and modern, and America are the only example of nations founded in explicit pursuit of an idea.

Tanya: The idea of covenant that forms a central theme in Rabbi Sacks's writings, both in its biblical origins and in his appropriation of the concept towards responding to both particularly Jewish challenges and of course more universal contemporary ones, is according to Rabbi Soloveichik, adopted by the Founding Fathers of America as a basis to the constitution and the formation of American nationhood. In his mind, American Jewry and Jews in the diaspora are uniquely placed to have a large impact on the non Jewish world.

Meir Soloveichik: My own view is that with the eyes of the world upon the Jewish people, there is actually a profound role for Jews in the diaspora to play. And something that I used to speak to Rabbi Sacks was about a feature of Jewish and non Jewish life in 2020 that I think today in a very different world still remains true. And that is the remarkable feature of the age in which we live that there are actually a very large number of non Jews that are inspired by our story as Jews, and that actually care a great deal about us. And that means, and if there's anyone who demonstrated this with his career as Rabbi Sacks, that means that the opportunity that we have to impact the larger world as Jews is immense. It is true we have seen manifestations of hatred of Jews in the past many months that have been incredibly depressing.

But we have also seen many that stand with the Jewish people and that are inspired by the story of the Jewish people. And that means that in the diaspora, the ability to impact the larger society in which we find ourselves as Jews is incredible and maybe more profound than most other periods in Jewish diaspora history. And if there is anything that can inspire us to seek to achieve this, it is surely the career of Rabbi Jonathan Sacks.

Tanya: I find it helpful to draw on an analogy to help us understand what Rabbi Sacks is doing for us. The idea of securing one's own oxygen mask before assisting others underscores a fundamental principle. To effectively aid and inspire, one must first ensure their own wellbeing and identity.

For Jews to share the unique messages of Judaism with the world, they must consciously embrace and take pride in their Jewish identity. They must secure their own life source first. This involves understanding the rich legacy of their people and recognizing how it can address the challenges facing broader society.

Rabbi Sacks emphasized the interplay between particular identity and its universal impact. He urged Jews to first comprehend their unique calling, claiming that without connecting to their own story and mission, they can't effectively engage with others.

Only by being secure in their identity, in other words, by putting on their oxygen mask first, can they then positively influence and assist the wider world.

In this context, Natan Sharansky, with his extensive experience working with diaspora Jewry, also recognized the significant role they play. He believed that by embracing their Jewish identity, diaspora Jews could contribute meaningfully to both their communities and the broader society. This aligns with Rabbi Sacks perspective on the importance of a strong, particular identity as a foundation for universal impact.

Natan Sharansky: For me, for a different role, I was nine years in prison, nine years in, in Israeli government, nine years as the head of Jewish Agency and all these roles and, in between, I felt that bringing more and more bridges between different Jewish communities and Israel, that is the answer to all of us. And, I think that's something extremely important. Now, of course, at the same time, if your mission is to improve the world, or if your mission is also to decrease the level of hatred towards Jews in the world, you have to deal with the non Jewish world. And here, I think the most important thing which Rav Sacks not invented from me, but made it much more clear for me, was that you don't have to change while moving from Jewish world to non Jewish world.

You don't have to speak different language to try to have different, you know, ways of explaining the world. As I was a number of times giving this example that I came once to England, to deal with, with anti semitism because there was rise of another way of rise of anti semitism and I'm in the government responsible for these questions. And Rav Sacks takes me straight from airport and takes me to the meeting that I didn't ask for with Archbishop Canterbury. And I say, what are we talking to him about? I didn't prepare. I prepared all my conversations for synagogues, for Jewish, public, for editors to explain them the danger of anti semitism. He said, no, you don't have to tell him anything different. Tell your story about Psalm book and the prison. Tell him about how you Soviet Jews fought for your right to be Jews in prison.

And, that was the beginning of that, of the story, how to make Archbishop Canterbury, at this moment of time, I don't want to say for all his life, to join our campaign because the people have to feel the roots of all this. When they go to the roots, when they go to basic ideas of Jewish people, they rediscover, they are reminded that that's exactly their ideas, that's exactly their challenges, their struggle. So, I think it's very important to be yourself, to be proud Jew, to be educated Jew, talking to the world and not to try to pretend somebody else.

Tanya: Like Rabbi Soloveichik and Sivan both articulated, Sharansky shared how during this time with the Jewish agency, he emphasised that diaspora Jewry didn't simply need to be convinced to immigrate to Israel. They also had a vital role to play in their presence and contributions outside of Israel.

Natan Sharansky: I think, feeling all the time feeling how this, interconnection between Jews who are in Zion and Jews who are not, how it's helps to both parts of our people to feel the greatness of our story and how it really works in two directions. Because I was involved in the struggle of Soviet Jewry and became our spokesman of this struggle.

So I could feel very much this tension on both sides, on this devotion on all those sides, and dependence. People don't understand that it's not only we Jews who are depending on the struggle of the Jews, in America and other places, but their identity was very much dependent on us and this connection gave me opportunity later when I was in the government and, sometimes to be one of very few voices who were speaking about the need not only to look at the diaspora Jewry as a source of immigration aliyah, but also as an important partner.

And when I was head of Jewish agency to be able to bring to Jews of the world this feeling of togetherness. They think it's something with these days we feel anew anew, but for Rav Sacks it was so natural. It was so natural, there was practically no difference. We are all Jews, we are all Zionists because, our identity is built on this unique story.

Tanya: Like Rabbi Soloveichik, Natasha Sharansky also recognises the significant role of diaspora Jewry. He concurs with Rabbi Sacks view that Jews can effectively engage in the universal pursuit of tikkun olam, of repairing the world, by embracing their unique Jewish identity. He also emphasised that Israeli Jews need to delve deeper into their heritage, understanding that, merely ensuring the State's survival is probably not enough. As Sivan Rav Meir articulated, a profound connection to Jewish identity is essential for both personal fulfillment and for bringing a meaningful contribution to the broader world.

Natan Sharansky: First of all, this idea that God needs us to make the world better, that God doesn't do it by himself or herself, whatever you feel, but that's why we are created to be in the image of God and, do the work. I think it's something very deep, in our people. And as a result, We can see big parts of Jewish people who are practically fully assimilated, but they say we are Jews because we want to see the world better. And tikkun olam, which is really such an important concept, suddenly became like a replacement of Judaism. And that's absolutely false.

I was lucky to be involved in two movements at the same time, and with this time became activist and spokesman of two movements in Soviet Union, Zionist movement and human rights movement. And there were so many people who resisted to it, saying that it's dangerous. It's not only dangerous, it's harmful, it's counterproductive. You have to decide, or you're a Zionist activist or a human rights activist. And I always felt that it's not only our nature, it's unproductive, it's very important to keep these two causes together. And, because if you have sense of tikkun olam, to make the world better, the only source of it, of this energy can come from, our Judaism. And I think what we see after the 7th of October, this unbelievable tragedy, but also unbelievable rediscovery of some very basic principles. We discovered that you have such a great young generation of Zionist fighters who could think we, with all our critical conversations about generation of TikTok and what they all wanted to go to Thailand and suddenly see how great it is. So it's a great discovery. And some other very good discoveries.

But I think, so what is important? Now, again, we can see that we have to fight for the physical, physical survival of Israel and Jewish people. Israel is in physical danger. Anti Semitism is as strong in the world, in the free world, as never was before. And we have to fight for physical survival. And at the same time, what we discover, that it cannot go separate from our Jewish identity. Those, many of my liberal American friends, who wanted to believe that their best ally are progressive movements, because that's what tikkun olam means. They suddenly, discover that their so-called allies, betrayed them and that they can be very alone in, in this world of tikkun olam, which is replacing Judaism that can find themselves very lonely without any strength. And they're coming back to understanding that our going back to our 'shorashim', to our roots, is very important, integral part of our struggle for the better world. 

So I would say number one threat at this moment is physical threat. Number two threat, which also is number one and which was number one for the last many years is assimilation. And we have to challenge these two fights simultaneously, because after all, in the end, it should be inseparable. Our struggle for our identity and our struggle for free will.

For many people, as for some people in diaspora, tikkun olam is replacing Judaism. For many people, I'm Israeli that's enough. To be Jew, it was important in diaspora, you had to fight to be Jew. Here, it is enough that I'm fighting to be Israeli, that Israel should be independent free, country. That, we should, none of the enemies can ever, endanger us, and that's the beginning and the end of my, Jewishness. And it's also dangerous because the moment we will try to become simply a normal state without our identity of thousands years of history I think we will have no strength also to fight, for the existence of Israel.

So yeah, it is very important that, we will remain one people, Jews, both in Israel and in the diaspora, and we'll feel this connection every day.

Tanya: The dynamic that Natan describes echoes what Erica called, in our previous episode, thin and thick identity. Or as we framed it, the difference between a Jewish identity shaped by a covenant of fate versus one rooted in a covenant of destiny. Sharansky argued that for a Jew in the diaspora to just say, I'm working for tikkun olam, or for an Israeli Jew to say, I'm Israeli, isn't enough to sustain a meaningful Jewish identity.

Rabbi Sacks, both as chief rabbi and a global leader, integrated these two aspects of Jewish identity, not just in his writings, but in his work on the ground. He often spoke of the concentric circles of identity we all inhabit, as parents, children, community leaders, professionals, and part of the universal human race.

Each layer of our identity contributes to the whole. For Rabbi Sacks, Judaism also works in this way. He believes Jews have a distinctive message to share with the world, but that message can only emerge when Jews are deeply connected to their own tradition. So a strong Jewish identity and active engagement with the wider world are both essential.

One can't thrive without the other. Joanna shares how this balance shaped his life and work, and was immensely powerful in creating his motto which was "Judaism engaged with the world."

Joanna: Rabbi Sacks very much believed in a Judaism engaged with the world. He felt completely the opposite of being parochial. He wanted to be inclusive and to have conversations and to build friends. He always talks about not being the victim, that we shouldn't be just speaking in our own echo chamber, but how important it was to be in dialogue and in conversation and be friends with those that you would think are not necessarily like us. And he did that so well as the Chief Rabbi, during his Chief Rabbinate, but he also worked on that very hard, when he stepped down and had lots of conversations. He showed that personally, that was the way he lived his life. And I mentioned, earlier, you know, he really lived his life as a Judaism engaged with the world, one is not divorced from the other. It's really important to, live your life by the ethics, and values and moral values that Judaism has to share. So bringing the best of Judaism into the best of the West.

Tanya: Each of our guests has highlighted what they see as the pressing challenge facing Jewish life today. Even in a post 7.10 world, the issues that Rabbi Sacks explored in A Letter in the Scroll, now almost 20 years ago, still resonate deeply. In Israel, there's the challenge of Jewish unity and cultivating a deeper Jewish identity, one that goes beyond merely surviving as a people. In the diaspora, there's the challenge of assimilation and apathy and the question of a commitment to an ancient heritage in a post identity era. In the book, Rabbi Sacks outlines the Jewish call. It's a call that challenges us to protest the status quo, to respond to the burning palace, the evil and the injustice that exist in the world.

It's a call that asks us to continue the journey our ancestors began, a covenantal commitment to a higher purpose, a rich identity and a religious activism. It's a call that asks us to respond to tragedy through innovative leaps in our imagination, and through a commitment to the incredibly specific manifesto given to us in love by God, the Torah.

It calls on Jews not to become victims of circumstance, but to become agents for change, even when the circumstances seem insurmountable. These themes are all explored in depth in his book.

I was interested to hear Rabbi Soloveichik present a challenge to Rabbi Sacks' interpretation of Jewish history, particularly regarding the historical ramifications of the destruction of the Temple and its focus on sacred space. This challenge focused on Rabbi Sacks reading of Chorban in chapters 11 and 12 of the book.

He explained it to me like this. 

Meir Soloveichik: As somebody who thinks about theology and writes about theology, and as someone who's been greatly impacted both by my reading of Rabbi Sacks, but also of having the blessing of knowing him and speaking with him, I would say that the part of A Letter in the Scroll with which I disagreed, and the subject about which I would have personally and have in other forms written and spoken about differently was his description of the "churban", the destruction of the Mikdash of the Temple, and how he reads Jewish history as following from that.

Rabbi Sacks sees in that chapter a movement from the cultic ritual of the Mikdash to an experience of religion in which, and I think these are his words, the Jewish people more truly become a nation of priests because of the ability, as he understands it, of every Jew to engage in personal worship. But as I see it for Jewish tradition, and as I see it as described in our prayers, Judaism remains a shell of itself without the ritual of the Mikdash and all that the Mikdash implies. And that one of the great challenges for Jewish thought in a modern or postmodern age is to explain to Jewish readers of philosophy and theology what the Mikdash actually means. Why for Judaism, not only sacred time, but sacred space is so fundamental to the experience of God as an individual, but of course, as is evident in the rituals of the holidays described in the Torah as part of a people.

And for me, that is one element of Jewish thought that has yet to be fully addressed in contemporary works of Jewish theology, and it's one that I hope I'll have the opportunity to address it in my own writing more. But if there was one chapter from the book with which I reacted in disagreement, which is, of course, exactly as it should be when you're reading the work of an important thinker, it would be that. 

My own thought has been profoundly impacted by a thinker that I know Rabbi Sacks admired and was very interested in, the theologian Michael Wyschogrod, he's known first and foremost for his writings on the nature of Jewish chosenness. But he also has remarkable things to say about the meaning of the Mikdash. And,, in this area as in others, I've been deeply impacted by him.

Tanya: For Rabbi Soloveichik, there may be a concern that certain readings of the "churban" of the destruction of the Temple risk being overly utopian, potentially undermining the profound loss of sacrificial worship and the sanctity of sacred space. He highlights the inherent tensions in navigating the challenge of keeping an ancient tradition vibrant and relevant in a modern context. This often creates a delicate balance. We have to preserve the core concepts, the values, the narratives of a religion, while also at the same time, trying to adapt them to contemporary conversations and timeframes.

While much can be gained in the process, there will obviously be inevitable losses along the way. Rabbi Soloveichik raises the question of whether Rabbi Sacks reading of history, particularly his reflections on triumph and tragedy, strike the right balance. If Rabbi Sacks were alive, I'm certain he would welcome this critical engagement with his work. He thrived on such dialogue as we'll explore in future episodes. However, one element of Rabbi Sacks' vision that Rabbi Soloveichik discusses resonates powerfully with our current moment. 

Just 80 years after the Holocaust, the world we inhabit as Jews in 2024-25, 5785, feels daunting. We face existential threats, both in Israel and the diaspora, while struggling with deep internal polarization that threatens to tear us apart.

And yet, much like in 1967, many Jews today are rediscovering their identity. They're seeking a deeper connection to their people, their history, their mission. They want to understand the story of the people who, against all odds have never surrendered to despair of people who rise again and again from tragedy, answering the eternal divine call with resilience and hope. 

This Jewish spirit so vividly captured by Rabbi Sacks is personified by our guest, Natan Sharansky, whose remarkable life story embodies that enduring legacy. 

Natan Sharansky: All our history is, uh, all our story is so optimistic, netzach Yisrael Lo Yishakach, Nili. And, We were isolated from the story and we were powerless. We joined the story and suddenly you have a lot of strength. And disappointment was, of course, look, when I came to Israel, it was like in one day I moved from the hell to paradise, really, physically. And then when you're in paradise, you can only go down from there, there are no higher skies. So for 38 years I go down now, and with many disappointments, when you are in the government almost every day there are disappointments. Twice I resigned from the government at the moment of such disappointments.

But, I'm still in paradise. And the moment you have to remind yourself simply, okay, you think it's bad? Think where we were 35 years ago, you yourself, and our people. Then think where we were 50 years ago. Then think where we were 100 years ago. And you can see how when we fight becomes better and better and deeper and more meaningful.

You discover that you have such a strong young generation, which is at least as strong as yours and maybe much stronger and so idealistic and so noble and so Zionist and you see that moment when it's happened. The army declared mobilization and how many came, 170% of those who were mobilized government people were ready to do everything to come from the end of the world, but in order to be mobilized. So we have such a deep feeling, solidarity At the same time as we were speaking about the rise in antisemitism, we have now deepened a feeling of one destiny.

Well, I am optimist, I was optimist in the days of the year and a half of interrogations when I knew really nothing what's happening in the world. And of course, I'm optimist now.

Tanya: For Rabbi Sacks, the kind of optimism described by Natan Sharansky means moving from fate to faith, from passiveness to agency, from the particular to the universal, from isolation to collective purpose, from apathy to responsibility, and from ambivalence to pride. 

The Jewish people have a unique mission to teach the world. But first, we need to fall in love once more with our own story, with our people, our past, our purpose, our foundational manifesto, the Torah. We return to where we started. 

In the closing song of the musical by Lin Miranda Manuel Hamilton, the song asks, Who lives, who dies, who tells your story? To be a Jew is to tell the story of our people.

As Rabbi Sacks illustrates in the book, it's like standing in a vast library filled with millions of books, each one of them a story of a person in history. But among them, there is one book with my name on it. In it is my people's past, and there is a blank page waiting for me to write my chapter in the rich, enduring, and often tumultuous story of the Jewish people. 

Rabbi Sacks: I admire other civilizations and traditions, and believe each Each has brought something special into the world of Alzeh Shalanu. But this is ours. This is my people, my heritage, my faith. In our uniqueness lies our universality.

Through being what we alone are, we give to humanity. What only we can give. This then is our story. Our gift to the next generation. I received it from my parents and they from theirs. Across great expanses of space and time. There's nothing quite like it. It changed and still challenges the moral imagination of humankind.

I want to say to Jews around the world. Take it. Cherish it. Learn to understand and to love it. Carry it and it will carry you. And may you, in turn, pass it on to future generations. For you are a member of an eternal people, a letter in their scroll. Let their eternity live on in you. 

Tanya: I'm Dr. Tanya White and you have been listening to Books From Beyond the Rabbi Sacks podcast. On our next episode, Dr. Mijal Bitton and I take a deep dive into the second book of our series, Future Tense, where we will explore its prescient themes of antisemitism and the Jewish narrative. You won't want to miss it.

Don't forget to check us out at rabbisacks.org and follow us on X and Facebook at RabbiSackspod and instagram @RabbiSackspodcast, where you will find all information and extra content relating to the episode.

If you enjoyed the episode, please be sure to rate us on Apple podcasts. Thank you to our series producer, Amir White and the team as well as to the Rabbi Sacks Legacy with special gratitude to Jonny Lipczer.

We cannot finish without holding in our hearts and minds that at the time of recording, one hundred of our brothers and sisters continue to be held hostage by Hamas in Gaza. We pray for their safe return in both body and spirit for the protection of our soldiers and for the return of all evacuees and a lasting peace.