The Future of Religion in a Secular Age

Professor Malamet

BOOKS LIKE SAM HARRIS' ‘THE END OF FAITH’

AND ‘LETTER TO A CHRISTIAN NATION,’

DANIEL DENNETT'S ‘BREAKING THE SPELL,’ RICHARD DAWKINS'

‘THE GOD DELUSION,’ AND, OF COURSE,

CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS' ‘GOD IS NOT GREAT’

HAVE FOUND LARGE READERSHIPS AND ENTHUSIASTIC FOLLOWINGS.

SO, TONIGHT I WOULD LIKE TO EXPLORE IN CONVERSATION

WITH TWO OF THE MOST THOUGHTFUL EXPOSITORS OF RELIGION IN

THE WORLD TODAY, THE QUESTION OF HOW RELIGION FUNCTIONS

IN AN AGE OF AUTONOMY,

OF FRAGMENTED COMMUNITIES, AND FRAYING TRADITIONS.

TO MY LEFT, JONATHAN SACKS

IS PROBABLY THE MOST ARTICULATE SPOKESPERSON FOR JUDAISM

IN THE WORLD TODAY.

HE HAS BEEN CHIEF RABBI OF THE UNITED HEBREW CONGREGATIONS OF THE COMMONWEALTH

SINCE SEPTEMBER 1991, THE SIXTH INCUMBENT SINCE THE ROLE WAS FORMALIZED IN 1845.

PRIOR TO TAKING UP

HIS CURRENT POST,

RABBI SACKS WAS THE RABBI OF THE GOLDERS GREEN

AND MARBLE ARCH SYNAGOGUES. HE WAS EDUCATED AT CAMBRIDGE,

WHERE HE OBTAINED FIRST-CLASS HONOURS

IN PHILOSOPHY.

HE PURSUED POSTGRADUATE

STUDIES AT NEW COLLEGE OXFORD

AND KING'S COLLEGE LONDON,

GAINING HIS P.H.D. IN 1981

AND RABBINIC ORDINATION

FROM JEW'S COLLEGE

AND YESHIVA ETZ CHAIM.

HIS LATEST BOOKS INCLUDE

‘FUTURE TENSE’

AND ‘THE GREAT PARTNERSHIP.’

PLEASE WELCOME,

CHIEF RABBI JONATHAN SACKS.

[Audience and Professor Taylor applaud]

Professor Malamet:

ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT

THINKERS THAT CANADA HAS EVER PRODUCED,

PROFESSOR CHARLES TAYLOR

IS THAT RARE PHILOSOPHER WHO ATTEMPTS

TO PUT HIS IDEAS INTO PRACTICE.

HIS WRITINGS HAVE BEEN

TRANSLATED INTO 20 LANGUAGES,

HE HAS COVERED A RANGE OF

SUBJECTS THAT INCLUDE

ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE,

LANGUAGE, SOCIAL BEHAVIOUR,

MORALITY, AND MULTICULTURALISM.

HE WAS A PUPIL OF

ISAIAH BERLIN AT OXFORD.

PROFESSOR TAYLOR TAUGHT AT

MCGILL FROM 1961 TO 1997, WHERE HE'S NOW

PROFESSOR EMERITUS.

HE IS ALSO A MEMBER OF THE ORDER OF CANADA.

PLEASE WELCOME PROFESSOR CHARLES TAYLOR.

[Audience and Rabbi Sacks applaud]

Professor Malamet:

GENTLEMEN, I'M GOING TO BEGIN OUR CONVERSATION TONIGHT

BY APPROACHING MATTERS FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF

RELIGIOUS EDUCATION, WHICH IS WHERE I LIVE.

PERHAPS THE PRIMARY FACT IN MUCH RELIGIOUS EDUCATION TODAY

IS THAT MANY OF THE PEOPLE THAT WE TEACH,

OF ALL STRIPES, ARE SO THOROUGHLY IMMERSED

IN THE MODERN WORLD

AND HAVE ABSORBED SO MANY

OF ITS PRESUPPOSITIONS,

FROM THE AUTONOMY OF CHOICE

TO THE DIVERSITY OF TRUTH,

THAT WE DON'T ALWAYS REFLECT

SUFFICIENTLY ON WHAT EFFECT

THIS HAS ON THEIR ABILITY

TO LIVE A SACRED LIFE.

IN 1918, MAX WEBER WRITES

THAT THE FATE OF OUR TIMES

IS CHARACTERIZED BY, ABOVE ALL,

THE DISENCHANTMENT OF THE WORLD,

AND BY THAT HE MEANS

THE KNOWLEDGE OR BELIEF

THAT THERE ARE NO MYSTERIOUS,

INCALCULABLE FORCES THAT

COME INTO PLAY, BUT THAT ONE CAN

IN PRINCIPLE MASTER ALL THINGS

BY CALCULATION.

I WANTED TO ASK YOU,

AND WE'LL BEGIN WITH YOU,

CHIEF RABBI, IF THE ATTITUDE

OF DISENCHANTMENT IS

ALL PERVASIVE,

AND I WANT YOU TO, UM,

DISCUSS WHETHER

YOU THINK IT IS OR NOT,

IF IT IS ALL PERVASIVE

IN MUCH OF THE MODERN WORLD,

THEN CAN TRADITIONAL

RELIGION TRULY SURVIVE

WITHOUT BECOMING

EITHER INCREDIBLY INSULAR,

ALMOST A WORLD APART,

AND IF THE PRICE TO BE

PAID FOR RELIGION'S SURVIVAL IS

THIS HERMETICALLY SEALED WORLD.

IS THAT TOO BIG

IN A PRICE TO PAY?

Text reads, "Jonathan Sacks. Chief Rabbi, United Hebrew Congregations of the Commonwealth. The future of religion in a secular age. Isabel Bader Theatre, Toronto. November 3, 2011."

Rabbi Sacks:

NO ONE HAS WRITTEN MORE--

MORE, UH, SUBTLY OF

THE MANY MEANINGS OF

THE WORD "SECULARIZATION"

THAN CHARLES HIMSELF

IN ‘SOURCES OF THE SELF

ANDA SECULAR AGE.’

BUT IT IS A MEASURE OF

OUR CONFUSION THAT WE FORGET

THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL POINT

OF MAX WEBER IN

THE DEMYTHOLOGIZING

OR DISENCHANTMENT OF THE WORLD.

ACCORDING TO MAX WEBER,

THE ROOTS OF WESTERN RATIONALITY

OF DISENCHANTMENT

ARE IN GENESIS CHAPTER ONE.

THE "IN THE BEGINNING

GOD CREATED."

THE GENESIS ONE

ACCOUNT OF CREATION IS

A POLEMIC AGAINST MYTH.

MYTH WAS A KIND OF PROTO-SCIENCE

THAT TRIED TO EXPLAIN

HOW THINGS CAME TO BE

AND VERY OFTEN DID SO

IN TERMS OF STORIES ABOUT

CLASHES BETWEEN THE GODS.

JUDAISM, BY THIS

SIMPLE LITANY OF,

"AND GOD SAID LET THERE BE,

AND THERE WAS,

AND GOD SAW THAT IT WAS GOOD,"

WAS, ACCORDING TO MAX WEBER,

THE OPENING UP OF

THE POSSIBILITY OF SCIENCE

THAT ANCIENT ISRAEL

AND, OF COURSE, ANCIENT GREECE

WERE THE FIRST CULTURES

TO BREAK WITH MYTH.

SO, IN A CERTAIN SENSE,

GENESIS ONE SECULARIZES

OR MAKES POSSIBLE

THE SECULARIZATION OF KNOWLEDGE

BY PREDICATING THE ABSOLUTE

TRANSCENDENCE OF GOD.

GOD ISN'T PART OF NATURE,

THEREFORE WE CAN

UNDERSTAND NATURE,

AND ESPECIALLY WHEN GOD

CREATES US IN HIS IMAGE

AND RATIONALLY EXPLAINS

THAT MEANS WITH THE CAPACITY

TO UNDERSTAND AND DISCERN.

THAT IS A DIVINE GIVEN GIFT

AT THE BASIS OF WHICH IS

NUMBER ONE,

THAT GOD WANTS US TO KNOW, AS AGAIN,

IT'S THE MYTH OF PROMETHEUS,

WHERE MAN HAD TO -

THE GODS HAD TO-

MAN HAD TO STEAL

KNOWLEDGE FROM THE GODS.

Rabbi Sacks:

SECONDLY, THE ENTIRE

UNIVERSE IS THE RESULT OF

A SINGLE RATIONAL CREATIVE WILL,

AND THEREFORE AMENABLE TO

HUMAN UNDERSTANDING,

NOT THE PLAY OF MYSTERIOUS

AND CAPRICIOUS ELEMENTS.

AND THEREFORE, JUDAISM BEGAN LIFE, AS IT WERE,

AS AN ACT OF SECULARIZATION OF KNOWLEDGE.

THE NEXT THING THAT HAPPENS

IN JUDAISM, NO LESS IMPORTANT,

IS ITS POLEMIC AGAINST

A SACRAL KINGSHIP.

YOU KNOW, THE CITY-STATE, THE KINGS OF

MESOPOTAMIAN CITY-STATES, AND ABOVE ALL THE PHARAOHS

OF EGYPT WERE EITHER DEMIGODS

OR THE CHILDREN OF GODS

OR THE CHIEF INTERLOCUTOR

WITH THE GODS. THEY WERE

RELIGIOUS HEADS AS WELL.

SO, JUDAISM

SECULARIZES KNOWLEDGE

AND IT SECULARIZES POWER,

AND THEREFORE WE CAN LIVE

WITH A WORLD IN WHICH

KNOWLEDGE IS SECULAR

AND POWER IS SECULARIZED,

BECAUSE RELIGION

BELONGS IN ANOTHER

DIMENSION OF LIFE ALTOGETHER,

AND IF I CAN GIVE THE PARADOX

HERE IT IS.

LOOK AT WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW

IN THE EVOLUTION OF

HUMAN CIVILIZATION.

TO EXPLAIN THE WORLD,

WE DON'T NEED--

[Clearing throat]

Rabbi Sacks continues,

-REVELATION, WE HAVE SCIENCE.

TO CONTROL IT WE DON'T NEED, UH,

ORACLES AND MAGIC,

WE HAVE TECHNOLOGY.

TO CONTROL POWER

WE DON'T NEED THE PROPHETS,

WE HAVE ELECTIONS,

EVEN IF SOMETIMES, CHARLES,

THEY GO THE WRONG WAY.

[Audience laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

AND, OH, MY GOODNESS,

CANADA MISSED ITS CHANCE OF

A PHILOSOPHER KING, CHARLES.

[Audience and Professor Taylor laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

YOU KNOW, IF WE'RE ILL,

WE DON'T GO TO A PRIEST,

WE GO TO A DOCTOR,

IF WE'RE DEPRESSED,

WE DON'T NEED

THE BOOK OF PSALMS,

WE CAN TAKE A PILL,

AND IF WE ARE IN

SEARCH OF SALVATION,

WE CAN GO TO THE MODERN

CATHEDRALS OF THE CONSUMER AGE,

NAMELY SHOPPING CENTRES.

[Audience laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

SO, IN FUNCTIONAL TERMS,

EVERYTHING RELIGION

USED TO DO IS NOW DONE

BY SOMETHING ELSE,

AND YET STILL PEOPLE BELIEVE,

AND I DON'T KNOW

IF THEY BELIEVE IN CANADA,

IN ENGLAND THEY GAVE UP

BELIEVING A LONG TIME AGO,

AND EVEN I SOMETIMES

HAVE TRIALS FOR FAITH

IN MY OWN SOCCER TEAM…

[Audience laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

BUT THE FACT IS

THAT RELIGION IS ALIVE

AND WELL IN MANY

PARTS OF THE WORLD,

ACCORDING TO ROBERT PUTNAM

IN AMERICAN GRACE.

ACCORDING TO THE EDITOR

OF THE ECONOMIST,

JOHN MICKLETHWAIT

IN HIS 2009 BOOK ‘GOD IS BACK,’

THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE

THAT ATTEND A CHURCH REGULAR,

WEEKLY, IN THE UNITED STATES

THAN IN THE THEOCRATIC

STATE OF IRAN.

DID YOU KNOW THAT?

40 PERCENT OF AMERICANS GO TO

A HOUSE OF WORSHIP EVERY WEEK,

ONLY 39 PERCENT OF IRANIANS GO.

AND EVEN MORE REMARKABLE IN A--

IN AN AREA WHERE CHAIRMAN MAO

50 YEARS AGO DECLARED CHINA

A RELIGION-FREE ZONE,

THERE ARE NOW MORE PEOPLE

IN CHURCH ONCE A WEEK

THAN THERE ARE MEMBERS

OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY.

SO, THE 21ST CENTURY IS GOING

TO BE A MORE RELIGIOUS CENTURY

THAN THE 20TH WAS,

AND RELIGION IS SURPRISINGLY

STILL ALIVE AND WELL.

WHY IS THAT?

IT IS BECAUSE THE FOUR GREAT

INSTITUTIONS OF THE MODERN AGE--

SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY,

LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC POLITICS,

AND THE MARKET ECONOMY

--CANNOT ANSWER THE THREE

FUNDAMENTAL QUESTIONS THAT

EVERY REFLECTIVE

HUMAN BEING WILL ASK.

NUMBER ONE, WHO AM I?

NUMBER TWO, WHY AM I HERE?

NUMBER THREE, HOW THEN SHALL I LIVE?

HUMAN BEINGS ARE

MEANING-SEEKING ANIMALS,

AND THE SEARCH FOR MEANING

IS CONSTITUTIVE OF OUR HUMANITY

AND RELIGION IS THE GREATEST

HERITAGE OF OUR MEANINGS.

THEREFORE, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT

WE HAVE TO HIDE OURSELVES AWAY

IN SECTARIAN FORMS OF

RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION,

EITHER SEGREGATED FROM THE WORLD

OR, SOMETIMES IN THE CASE

OF ANGRY FUNDAMENTALISTS,

IN AN ADVERSARIAL

STANCE TOWARDS THE WORLD.

I BELIEVE WE CAN BE IN

THE WORLD WITH CONFIDENCE

THAT FAITH STILL HAS

A ROLE TO PLAY IN SOCIETY

AND IN WHAT IT

MEANS TO BE HUMAN.

Professor Malamet

PROFESSOR TAYLOR, I JUST WANT

TO SPIT IT A LITTLE BIT FOR YOU.

WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT

SECULARIZATION IN YOUR BOOK,

YOU'RE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT

HOW MANY PEOPLE GO TO CHURCH

AND HOW MANY DON'T,

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A KIND OF

INTERNALIZATION OF AN ATTITUDE…

[Someone clears their throat]

Professor Malamet says, I THINK YOU TALK ABOUT

THE BUFFERED SELF,

WHERE EVEN PEOPLE WHO PURPORT

TO BE "RELIGIOUS" DO NOT

SEEM TO HAVE THE SAME MINDSET

IN THE 2000’S THAT THEY DID

500 YEARS AGO IN TERMS OF

THINKING ABOUT THINGS

LIKE DEMONS, FAIRIES,

THE SOUL, THE AFTERLIFE.

I WONDER IF YOU COULD TALK ABOUT

THAT A BIT FOR OUR AUDIENCE.

Professor Taylor:

YEAH, I THINK THIS

IS VERY IMPORTANT, BUT I WANT TO SAY FIRST

HOW MOVED I AM ABOUT WHAT JONATHAN SAID

EARLIER ABOUT MYSELF.

IF I HAVE WISDOM,

IT'S BECAUSE I'VE TALKED TO A LOT OF PEOPLE

IN THIS CHAIN,

AND ONE OF THEM HAS BEEN

VERY MUCH JONATHAN SACKS HERE

THAT I'VE LEARNT

A GREAT DEAL FROM.

Text reads, "Charles Taylor. Professor Emeritus, Political Science and Philosophy. McGill. The future of religion in a secular age. Isabel Bader Theatre, Toronto. November 3, 2011."

Professor Taylor:

BUT TO GET BACK TO YOUR QUESTION, YES, WEBER, I'D NEVER

ACCUSE HIM OF SLOPPY THINKING, BUT I-- BUT HE DID

MAKE A KIND OF SLIP HERE, AND IT REFLECTS SOMETHING

VERY AMBIVALENT IN WEBER.

YOU SEE, THE WORD DISENCHANTMENT ORIGINALLY MEANT

"THE DEMAGIFICATION," THAT'S WHAT THE WORD

MEANS IN GERMAN,

ENTZAUBERUNG, RIGHT?

SO, HE WAS TALKING ABOUT EXACTLY

WHAT JONATHAN WAS TALKING ABOUT.

HOW SAUL IS CONDEMNED FOR

CONSULTING THE WITCH OF ENDOR.

THAT IS WHAT-- AND THAT MOVE

HAS COME FROM THE HEBREW BIBLE,

THROUGH CHRISTIANITY,

THROUGH ISLAM, THAT KIND OF

DEMAGIFICATION OF THE WORLD.

THEN HE SLIPS IN

THIS FAMOUS PHRASE FROM

SCIENCE AS A VOCATION

TO TALK ABOUT,

"THERE ARE MYSTERIOUS

INCALCULABLE FORCES

AND EVERYTHING IS

DONE BY CALCULATION."

HE, YOU KNOW,

DID HE REALLY BELIEVE THIS?

I DON'T THINK SO,

BECAUSE IN LOTS OF OTHER PARTS

OF HIS WORK HE TALKS ABOUT

A UNIVERSE IN WHICH EVERYTHING

IS DONE BY CALCULATION

AS AN IRON CAGE, RIGHT?

[Clears throat]

Professor Taylor:

SO, HE'S VERY,

VERY AMBIVALENT ABOUT THIS,

BUT OBVIOUSLY THESE TWO

ARE VERY DIFFERENT THINGS.

YOU GET RID OF MAGIC,

DOES THAT MEAN THAT YOU

NO LONGER BELIEVE IN

THE POWER OF PRAYER

AND GETTING CLOSE TO GOD

AND GIVING YOU A POWER TO

DO THINGS YOU

COULDN'T DO OTHERWISE?

DOESN'T FOLLOW AT ALL.

BUT WHEN PEOPLE

RUN THESE TWO TOGETHER

IT SOUNDS AS THOUGH

IT OUGHT TO FOLLOW.

WHAT WE'RE REALLY

LIVING IN IS AN AGE--

YOU KNOW, IN THE WEST,

NOT EVERYWHERE,

BUT IS AN AGE IN WHICH,

ROUGHLY SPEAKING,

MAGIC HAS A MUCH LESSER PLACE,

AND PEOPLE ARE

EVEN INURED TO IT,

MAYBE INSENSITIVE TO SOME

THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON THERE.

BUT IN THIS WORLD THE GREAT

ISSUES ARISE, AS JONATHAN SAYS.

THE GREAT ISSUES ARISE AGAIN

AND THE VARIOUS MESSAGES THAT

COME FROM THE RELIGIOUS

COMMUNITIES CAN ANSWER THEM,

CAN SPEAK TO THEM.

[Background coughing]

Professor Malamet turns to Rabbi Sacks.

Professor Malamet:

I THINK THAT THE THREE

QUESTIONS YOU POSED ARE SORT OF

EXISTENTIAL QUESTIONS,

BUT THE QUESTION IS

IF YOU TAKE AWAY THE FUNDAMENTAL

BELIEF IN MAGIC, LET'S SAY,

SO LET'S PLAY DEVIL'S

ADVOCATE FOR A SECOND,

MY SECULAR STUDENTS

WILL SAY THINGS LIKE,

"MAINSTREAM PROPOSITIONS

OF RELIGION ARE MAGIC.”

Text reads, "Elliott Malamet. Professor of Jewish Education. York. The future of religion in a secular age. Isabel Bader Theatre, Toronto. November 3, 2011."

Professor Malamet says, “WE'RE NOT TALKING

ABOUT DEMONS AND FAIRIES,

JUST THE IDEA OF

GETTING UP AND PRAYING TO

AN INVISIBLE BEING

IS IRRATIONAL, IT'S MAGICAL,

I'LL HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

THE IDEA THAT GOD

CARES ABOUT ME,

REWARDS AND PUNISHES ME,

THAT'S MAGICAL,

I'LL HAVE NOTHING

TO DO WITH IT."

SO, IN A WAY WHAT I'M ASKING

IS HOW CAN YOU SPLIT OFF,

HOW CAN A PERSON HAVE

A NORMATIVE RELIGIOUS LIFE

IF THE CULTURE'S CONSCIOUSNESS

IS THAT WE'VE GOTTEN RID OF

THESE ELEMENTS

THAT WERE THE VERY CORE OF

WHAT BELIEF MEANT.

Professor Taylor:

YEAH, WELL, THAT'S BECAUSE

THEY'RE CONFUSING MAGIC

WITH SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

I MEAN, SAYING WE DON'T

BELIEVE IN MAGIC IS NOT THAT

WE DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD,

THERE'S ANOTHER CONVER--

WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT THERE'S

SOME KIND OF AUTOMATIC WAY,

BY DOING A CERTAIN RITUAL,

AND IF I WANT TO GET RID OF YOU

I MAKE A LITTLE IMAGE

AND PUT A PIN IN IT.

WHEN WE RELATE TO GOD, THAT'S NOT--

WELL, IF YOU SUDDENLY ASK GOD

TO HELP ME TO PASS THE EXAMS…

[Professor Taylor chuckling]

Professor Taylor:

AND THAT KIND OF PRAYER I THINK

IS A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF

SPIRITUAL LIFE,

BUT THE REAL POINT IS

GETTING CLOSE TO GOD

AND WE BECOME FINER,

BETTER, FULLER PEOPLE

IN DOING THIS.

[Professor Taylor chuckling]

Professor Taylor:

BUT IF THAT'S MAGIC,

THEN ANY KIND OF MORAL GROWTH

IS MAGIC, AND, OF COURSE,

IF YOU USE THE WORD

THAT SLOPPILY THEN--

THEN ALL DISTINCTIONS GO,

BUT IF YOU, YOU KNOW,

IF YOU SEE VERY CLEARLY

WHAT THE NARROW

MEANING OF DISENCHANTMENT,

THEN CLEARLY THAT DOESN'T

TOUCH A WHOLE LOT OF RELIGIONS

IN THE WORLD THAT

ARE, YOU KNOW, BASIC--

IS THE MESSAGE OF

THE BUDDHA-BASED ON MAGIC?

IS IT-- YOU KNOW, CLEARLY NOT.

Professor Malamet says, RIGHT, I MEAN-- GO AHEAD. YEAH.

[Background coughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

CHARLES IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT,

AND THE, AND, YOU KNOW,

AND THAT'S, I THINK, WHY WE BOTH

ENGAGE IN PHILOSOPHY AGAINST,

AS OUR IMMUNE SYSTEM,

AGAINST WHAT WITTGENSTEIN

CALLED THE BEWITCHMENT

OF INTELLIGENCE

BY MEANS OF LANGUAGE. UM...

THE TRUTH IS THAT THE TORAH

IN, YOU KNOW, IN, UH,

PARSHAT SHOFTIN,

IN THE MIDDLE OF DEUTERONOMY,

ABSOLUTELY FORBIDS

MAGIC OF ALL KINDS.

CONSULTING THE DEAD, SOOTHSAYING,

AND ALL THOSE KIND OF THING.

AND ABSOLUTELY OPPOSED TO IT.

Text reads, "Jonathan Sacks. Chief Rabbi, United Hebrew Congregations of the Commonwealth. The future of religion in a secular age. Isabel Bader Theatre, Toronto. November 3, 2011."

Rabbi Sacks

SECONDLY,

THE HEBREW WORD FOR "TO PRAY,"

LEHITPALLEL, ACTUALLY MEANS

"TO JUDGE YOURSELF,"

AND ACTUALLY PRAYER'S

MORE TO DO WITH OPENNESS

TO OTHERNESS THAN SOME

MAGICAL WAY OF BRINGING ABOUT

A CERTAIN RESULT.

AND, YOU KNOW, AS--

AS THE OLD JOKE PUTS IT,

YOU KNOW...

GOLDBERG, WHO'S BEEN FAITHFULLY

TO SYNAGOGUE EVERY DAY

FOR 50 YEARS, SUDDENLY DOESN'T

TURN UP FOR SEVERAL WEEKS,

AND THE RABBI GOES TO SEE HIM,

AND HE SAYS,

"GOLDBERG, WHAT'S THE MATTER?

YOU ALWAYS CAME TO SYNAGOGUE,

YOU ALWAYS PRAYED."

HE SAID, "FOR 50 YEARS I PRAYED,

AND ONCE, ONCE IN MY LIFE

I ASKED GOD ONE THING.

I SAID, 'GOD, LET ME WIN THE LOTTERY,

I NEED 50 MILLION POUNDS,'

AND HE DIDN'T ANSWER MY PRAYER,

SO I'M NOT GONNA PRAY ANYMORE."

AND THE RABBI SAID, "GOLDBERG,

GOD DID ANSWER YOUR PRAYER,

IT'S JUST THAT THE ANSWER WAS NO."

[Audience and Professor Taylor laughing]

Rabbi Sacks

I BELIEVE WE ARE

TRANSFORMED BY PRAYER

IN A WAY THAT IRIS MURDOCH

SAID SO BEAUTIFULLY,

I MENTIONED THIS TO

CHARLES EARLIER IN N.Y.U.

A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO,

IRIS MURDOCH HAS THIS

WONDERFUL PASSAGE IN HER BOOK,

THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOOD,

WHERE SHE'S TALKING ABOUT

SOMEONE, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE--

YOU'RE IN A STATE,

YOU'RE FEELING VERY LOW,

VERY SORRY FOR YOURSELF,

AND YOU LOOK OUT OF THE WINDOW,

AND SUDDENLY YOUR ATTENTION IS

CAUGHT BY A KESTREL,

AND YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY

ENTRANCED BY THE BEAUTY

AND POWER OF THIS BIRD,

AND ALL OF A SUDDEN

YOU FORGET YOURSELF COMPLETELY.

"ME" BECOMES NOTHING

AND IT'S ALL KESTREL,

AND IRIS MURDOCH

CALLED THIS "UNSELFING,"

AND THAT WAS PART OF HER THEORY

OF A SORT OF PLATONIC THEORY

OF GOOD AS A WAY OF,

YOU KNOW, UNSELFING

AND SEEING WHAT'S REALLY THERE.

AND THERE'S NO DOUBT

THAT I RESPONDED TO THAT,

RESONATED WITH THAT AS TRUE

BECAUSE ACTUALLY I THINK THAT IS

WHAT PRAYER IS, IT IS

A SUSTAINED ACT OF UNSELFING,

AND OUR DAILY PRAYERS

BEGIN WITH ITS LONG LIST OF

BRIGHT BLESSINGS TO GOD FOR

GIVING US BACK OUR LIFE TODAY,

FOR, YOU KNOW,

FOR THE AIR WE BREATHE,

FOR THE GROUND

WE TREAD ON, AND SO ON,

ALL OF WHICH IS

OPENING OUR EYES TO WONDER,

AND I THINK THAT'S

THE POWER OF PRAYER

AND IT'S GOT

NOTHING TO DO WITH MAGIC.

BUT THERE WAS, IN THE PEWS

OR IN THE GENERAL LIFE OF

THE SYNAGOGUE, LOTS OF PEOPLE

WHO WERE DOING LOTS OF THINGS

ON THE SIDE EVEN THOUGH

THEY WEREN'T ENTIRELY

CONSIDERED KOSHER

WHICH WE CAN THINK OF IN

TERMS OF THE WORLD OF MAGIC,

THAT WAS CERTAINLY THE CASE OF

MEDIEVAL CHRISTIANITY.

I MEAN, THERE WAS ALL THIS FEAR

OF THE SPIRITS OF THE WOODS

AND BEATING THE BOUNDS OF THE PARISH,

AND THAT WAS AN IMPORTANT

PART OF PARISH LIFE.

[Background coughing, throat clearing]

Professor Taylor:

SO, WE'RE IN A NEW EPOCH

IN WHICH, IF YOU LIKE,

RELIGION WHICH WAS RATHER

CLOSELY LINKED WITH MAGIC

IN MANY CASES IS

BEING DETACHED FROM IT,

BUT WHAT THIS IS IS NOT

A TOTALLY NEW SITUATION.

IT'S GOT-- ITS LIBERATING

A POSSIBILITY THAT WAS

FORMERLY PERHAPS MORE A MINORITY

THAN A MAJORITY CHOICE,

AND MAKING IT THE CENTRE

OF OUR RELIGIOUS LIVES.

I THINK THAT IS

THE SPECTACULAR CHANGE,

IF YOU LOOK OVER

THE 500 YEARS, THAT'S COME.

[Background coughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

THERE IS A LEGAL

PRINCIPLE IN JUDAISM,

AIN SOMCHIN AL HANEIS,

WE DO NOT RELY ON MIRACLES.

WE'RE MAKING CALCULATIONS,

THOSE MUST BE DONE

ON A RATIONAL BASE,

BUT THE LOCUS--

LOCUS CLASSICUS HERE

IS ISAIAH CHAPTER ONE.

SO, WE'RE GOING

BACK TO 7TH, 8TH CENTURY

BEFORE THE CHRISTIAN ERA,

THAT POWERFUL VISION OF

CHAPTER ONE IN WHICH GOD SAYS,

YOU KNOW, IF YOU WILL FAIL TO

EXECUTE SOCIAL JUSTICE

AND CARE FOR THE WIDOW

AND THE ORPHAN,

AND YOU, YOU KNOW, YOU--

YOU TAKE BRIBES AS A POLITICIAN,

ALL THE REST OF IT, GOD SAYS,

"WHO ASKED YOU TO COME

TRAMPLING ON MY COURTS?

THE MORE YOU PRAY,

THE LESS I WILL LISTEN."

Text reads, "For schedule of upcoming shows: [email protected]."

Rabbi Sacks:

IN OTHER WORDS, ISAIAH WAS

SAYING DON'T BELIEVE YOU CAN

SEE PRAYER AS SOME MAGICAL

WAY OF ACHIEVING A RESULT.

A SUCCESSFUL SOCIETY IS ONE

BUILT ON PERFECTLY RATIONAL,

ETHICAL PRINCIPLES,

AND GOD IS NOT YOUR SHORTCUT

THAT ALLOWS YOU TO BYPASS

THE ETHICAL AND HENCE ALSO,

IN THAT BROAD SENSE, THE RATIONAL.

Professor Malamet says, RELATED TO THIS I WANTED

TO BRING A QUOTE FROM

PETER BERGER WHEN

HE WRITES IN ‘A FAR GLORY,’

WHICH IS A BOOK HE

PUBLISHED ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO,

IT HAS A VERY--

I REMEMBER WHEN I FIRST READ IT

IT REALLY STRUCK ME

EVEN THOUGH HE WAS TALKING

ABOUT THE PROTESTANT EXPERIENCE.

HE SAYS THAT HE BELIEVES

THERE'S A KIND OF SURRENDER,

THAT'S THE WORD HE USES,

THAT TAKES PLACE ON

THE PART OF MANY, UM,

CONTEMPORARY

CHRISTIAN THEOLOGIANS,

AND IT COULD APPLY

TO JUDAISM AS WELL,

AND WHAT HE TALKS ABOUT IS WHEN

CERTAIN THINGS ARE SUBSTITUTED

FOR TRADITIONAL RELIGION.

UH, THE SUBSTITUTES HE SAYS

ARE THINGS LIKE THE ALLEGED

ETHICS OF JESUS OR SOME

SORT OF EXISTENTIAL EXPERIENCE

OR MENTAL HEALTH

WITH A SPIRITUAL COMPONENT

OR CHRISTIANITY AS

A POLITICAL AGENDA,

AND HENCE HE SEES THEM

AS A KIND OF SUICIDE.

IN OTHER WORDS, WHEN RELIGION IS

USED TO DO THE THINGS THAT

OTHER DOMAINS CAN DO,

THAT PEOPLE CAN DISCOVER

THAT THEY CAN DO ALL OF

THESE THINGS WITHOUT RELIGION,

THEY CAN BE

ETHICAL WITHOUT JESUS

AND THEY CAN BE

EXISTENTIALLY AUTHENTIC

AND HEALTHY

WITHOUT RELIGION, ETC.

SO, HE SEEMS TO BE

ARGUING THAT THE PEOPLE

WHO COMMUNICATE RELIGION TODAY,

PERHAPS EXCEPT IN THE MOST

ORTHODOX CIRCLES,

FEEL THAT THE MESSAGE OF

TRADITIONAL RELIGION--

THAT'S WHY I WAS INTERESTED,

CHIEF RABBI, WHEN YOU WERE

TALKING ABOUT OPENING ONESELF

--THAT THERE SEEMS TO BE

A REPLACEMENT OF THE OLD WORDS.

GOD, SACRIFICE, OBLIGATION,

SIN, REWARD, PUNISHMENT,

AND IN FACT IN MANY PLACES

IN THE JEWISH WORLD,

AND I ASSUME IT'S THIS WAY

IN THE CHRISTIAN WORLD AS WELL,

THERE'S A NEW KIND OF LANGUAGE.

RELIGION AS SELF-GROWTH

OR MEDITATIVE PRACTICE

OR, WHAT YOU SPEAK ABOUT

IN YOUR BOOK, AUTHENTICITY.

SO, I'M WONDERING IF YOU

THINK THAT THE WAY WE TALK

ABOUT RELIGION TODAY REFLECTS--

YOU SAID IT WAS LIBERATING,

BUT I'M WONDERING THAT'S

ALSO A CERTAIN DEFENSIVENESS.

UM, AS THOUGH RELIGION IS A BIT

EMBARRASSED ABOUT THE OLD WORDS,

AND SO TO ENGAGE PEOPLE

IN THE MODERN WORLD

WE TRY AND OPEN UP RELIGION'S

POTENTIAL IN A SPIRITUAL SENSE,

WHICH IS A GOOD THING,

BUT I'M WONDERING IF IT'S ALSO

AN AVOIDANCE OF THE OLD STUFF.

Professor Taylor:

YEAH, WELL, I MEAN,

WHAT YOU HAVE HERE

IN THESE VARIOUS THINGS

THAT YOU MENTIONED,

LIKE SELF-GROWTH AND SO ON,

IS AN ABANDONMENT OF WHAT,

IN BOTH JUDAISM IN CHRISTIANITY,

YOU COULD MENTION BUDDHISM,

YOU MENTIONED

MANY OTHER RELIGIONS,

IS THE POSSIBILITY OF

A MUCH PROFOUNDER CHANGE

IN HUMAN BEINGS.

I MEAN, LET'S SPEAK

IN TERMS OF OUR, YOU KNOW,

OF OUR TWO RELIGIONS HERE,

THOUGH WE'D HAVE TO PHRASE IT

DIFFERENTLY IF WE'RE

SPEAKING OF OTHERS,

BUT THAT IN CONTACT

WITH GOD ONE CAN HAVE

A MUCH PROFOUNDER

TRANSFORMATION,

BUT YOU CAN'T BE CAPTURED

BY THINGS LIKE SELF-GROWTH,

BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS

THAT'S INVOLVED IS UNSELFING,

IS GOING BEYOND THE SELF, RIGHT?

Professor Taylor:

AND SO, IT'S POSSIBLE TO REACT

TO THE MODERN WORLD BY SAYING,

"WELL, THOSE KINDS OF MORE

FAR-REACHING TRANSFORMATIONS,

FORGET THEM, WE CAN HAVE

A PERFECTLY HAPPY LIFE DOWN HERE

WITH THESE MUCH LESSER MODES

WHICH WE CAN CALCULATE

IN DIFFERENT WAYS, YOU KNOW,

THIS KIND OF SECULAR KIND OF

MEDITATION WILL MAKE YOU

HAPPIER AND SO ON, RIGHT?

AND THAT'S CERTAINLY

A VERY IMPORTANT TREND

IN THE MODERN WORLD,

AND SOMETIMES RELIGIOUS

COMMUNITIES CAN

IN A LITTLE CERTAIN WAY

CAVE INTO THAT TREND,

BUT IT CAN'T REALLY

SUFFICE IN THE END,

BECAUSE FOR SOME

PEOPLE IT MIGHT,

BUT FOR MANY, MANY PEOPLE

THE SENSE THAT THERE'S

SOMETHING MORE BRINGS THEM

BACK AGAIN TO THE BIBLE,

TO, YOU KNOW...

Professor Malamet says, IS IT A SHRINKING?

ARE WE SHRINKING

RELIGION A LITTLE BIT?

Rabbi Sacks:

IT'S A SELLOUT.

AN ABSOLUTE SELLOUT.

I MEAN, RELIGION IS MORE

THAN CANONIZING THE STATUS QUO.

Professor Taylor:

YEAH.

Rabbi Sacks:

AND, YOU KNOW, UM, REALLY...

IN FACT, IT'S A KIND OF IDOLATRY.

"IDOLATRY" MEANS

MAKING GOD IN OUR IMAGE

INSTEAD OF ALLOWING HIM

TO REMAKE US IN HIS,

AND IT ALWAYS STRUCK ME AS

A PRETTY RIDICULOUS STRATEGY.

YOU KNOW--

YOU KNOW THOSE EARLY

WOODY ALLEN FILMS?

YOU KNOW, NEUROTIC,

JEWISH, BROOKLYN KID MEETS

SUAVE, SOPHISTICATED,

WHITE ANGLO-SAXON

PROTESTANT GIRLFRIEND.

I CAN'T REMEMBER WHETHER

THIS WAS THE DIANE KEATON PHASE

OR THE OTHER PHA--

WHATEVER IT WAS…

[Audience chuckling]

Rabbi Sacks:

AND THEY'RE KIND OF TALKING,

AND, YOU KNOW,

HE'S SAYING TO HER,

"WHAT WAS THE BIGGEST SIN

WHEN YOU WERE A CHILD?"

YOU KNOW?

AND SHE SAYS SOMETHING LIKE,

WHATEVER IT IS,

SPEAKING WHILE YOU'RE EATING

OR SOMETHING,

AND SHE SAYS TO HIM,

"AND WHAT WAS THE BIGGEST SIN

WHEN YOU WERE A CHILD?"

AND HE SAYS, "BUYING RETAIL."

[Everyone laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

YOU KNOW,

JEWS CUT OUT THE MIDDLEMAN.

[Professor Taylor laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

SO, IF THE SYNAGOGUE

DELIVERS FOR ME SOMETHING THAT

THE SECULAR SOCIETY

DELIVERS CLEANER AND BETTER,

I'M GOING TO

CUT OUT THE MIDDLEMAN

AND GO STRAIGHT TO

THE SECULAR SOCIETY.

SO, DON'T TRY AND DO THAT WITH JEWS.

I REMEMBER FOR THE LAST

10 YEARS OR 15 YEARS,

I'VE LAUNCHED SOMETHING,

IT'S A MAINLY CHRISTIAN THING,

BUT IT'S A LOT OF CHARITIES,

SOME SECULAR,

CALLED NATIONAL MARRIAGE WEEK.

Rabbi Sacks:

AND THE FIRST TIME WE DID THIS,

IN BRITAIN, YOU KNOW,

MARRIAGE IS A PRETTY BAD STATE.

UM, 46 PERCENT OF CHILDREN

IN BRITAIN NOW

ARE BORN OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE.

SO, MARRIAGE IS REALLY IN DISARRAY.

AND SO, WHEN I OPEN THIS

NATIONAL MARRIAGE WEEK

FOR THE FIRST TIME,

A JOURNALIST CAME UP TO ME

AND SAID, "ISN'T THAT TERRIBLY

POLITICALLY INCORRECT…"

[Professor Taylor laughing]

"CHIEF RABBI?"

I SAID, "OF COURSE IT IS!

IF IT WEREN'T, WHAT WOULD BE

THE POINT OF OUR SAYING IT?"

YOU KNOW? RELIGION IS THERE

AS A COUNTER VOICE.

IT IS A CHALLENGE TO

THE NORMS OF SOCIETY,

AND IT'S A WAY OF SAYING,

"LOOK UP, SEARCH FOR A MORE

EXPANSIVE HORIZON."

NOW WE ARE LIVING IN THE BIG

"I" GENERATION OF ALL TIME.

OUR NEW REVELATION WAS

BROUGHT DOWN THE MOUNTAIN

BY THE LATE STEVE JOBS,

HOLDING IN HIS HAND

THE TWO TABLETS.

[Audience laughing]

iPAD ONE AND iPAD TWO.

[Audience laughing]

AND SO, WE HAVE THE IPAD,

THE IPHONE, THE IPOD, THE ITUNES,

EVERYTHING'S I, I, I,

AND IT IS NOT SURPRISING THAT

WE ARE MORE AFFLUENT THAN

PREVIOUS GENERATIONS

AND MORE PRONE TO DEPRESSIVE

AND STRESS-RELATED SYNDROMES,

AND RELIGION IS ABOUT

MOVING BEYOND THE I.

I CALLED RELIGION

"THE REDEMPTION OF SOLITUDE,"

AND THAT IS A DIRECT

CHALLENGE TO THE INDIVIDUALISM

OF CONTEMPORARY CULTURE.

Professor Malamet says, I WANTED TO RETURN TO SOMETHING

I MENTIONED OFF THE TOP,

WHICH IS THE SORT OF ATTACKS

OR CHALLENGES TO RELIGION THAT

WE ENCOUNTER TODAY.

UM, WHAT WAS CALLED

THE SCHOOL OF THE NEW ATHEISTS.

THEY ATTACK RELIGION WITH

A GREAT DEAL OF FLOURISH.

UM, THEY SEE IT AS

THE PROVINCE OF IRRATIONALITY,

EVEN FANATICISM,

AND THEY'RE VERY POPULAR.

AND FOR BELIEVERS

IT'S SOMEWHAT FRUSTRATING

AS SOME OF THEIR WRITINGS

SEEMS TO SOMEWHAT STEREOTYPE

RELIGIOUS PRACTICE.

I'M WONDERING WHY YOU THINK--

BOTH OF YOU CAN WEIGH IN ON THIS

--WHY YOU THINK THAT

THIS KIND OF WRITING

HAS BECOME SO POPULAR NOW,

TO DERIDE RELIGION AS NEGATIVE,

SIMPLE-MINDED, DESTRUCTIVE?

UM, IS IT BECAUSE THEY'VE

ONLY FOCUSED ON CERTAIN ASPECTS

OF RELIGION

OR DO THEY HAVE A CASE?

Rabbi Sacks:

OTHER THAN YIDDISH,

I THINK OXFORD

COMES UP WITH THE BEST INSULTS.

[Audience and Professor Taylor laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

AND THEREFORE, IF I MAY USE

AN OXFORD WAY OF DESCRIBING

THE NEW ATHEISTS, I WOULD SAY,

ON THE SURFACE THEY'RE PROFOUND.

[Audience and Professor Taylor laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

BUT DEEP DOWN

THEY'RE SUPERFICIAL.

[Audience and Professor Taylor laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

THERE IS NOTHING IN

THE WRITINGS OF THE NEW ATHEISTS

THAT WAS NOT SAID

BETTER BY HUME, BY KANT,

AND, WITH INFINITELY

MORE ELOQUENCE,

BY BERTRAND RUSSELL.

SO, MY SENSE OF DEJA VU

IS ABSOLUTELY OVERWHELMING.

WHY IT'S HAPPENING NOW

I THINK WAS BEST EXPLAINED

BY THE LATE LEO STRAUSS,

WHOM I NEVER KNEW,

IN A LITTLE BOOK HE WROTE

CALLED ‘PHILOSOPHY AND LAW,’

WHO POINTED OUT THAT

WHEN THE, YOU KNOW,

THE PHILOSOPH ANNOUNCED

THE DEATH OF RELIGION

AND RELIGION DIDN'T DIE,

AND THEY PRODUCED

EVERY CONCEIVABLE REASON

WHY IT WASN'T TRUE,

AND PEOPLE WERE

SIMPLY UNMOVED BY THIS.

THEY RESORTED TO THE LAST

WEAPON OF DESPERATION,

WHICH IS RIDICULE,

WHICH IS, IN EFFECT,

WHAT MANY OF THESE WRITERS DO.

NUMBER ONE,

LIKE THIS STUFF ABOUT MAGIC,

THEY FAIL TO OBSERVE

THE ELEMENTARY RULE

OF ANTHROPOLOGY AND SOCIOLOGY,

WHICH IS TO

DISTINGUISH FOLK RELIGION

FROM NORMATIVE RELIGION.

I MEAN, ALL RELIGIONS HAVE

A FOLK PENUMBRA, YOU KNOW,

WHICH INCLUDE PRACTICES

WHICH ARE FROWNED ON

BY THE MAINSTREAM,

BUT NONETHELESS HAPPEN.

NUMBER TWO, THEY LUMP

TOGETHER POLEMICS AGAINST MYTH

AND THE BIBLE WITH MYTH AS WELL.

I MEAN, RICHARD DAWKINS,

IN HIS NEW BOOK,

THE MAGIC OF CREATION,

WHICH IN MANY OTHER RESPECTS

IS A SUPER BOOK.

I MEAN, IT'S DEEPLY--

IT'S A BOOK FILLED WITH AWE,

BUT, YOU KNOW,

HE TAKES GENESIS EIGHT,

GOD'S COVENANT WITH NOAH,

SYMBOLIZED BY THE RAINBOW,

AS A KIND OF

QUASI-SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION

OF WHY THERE ARE RAINBOWS.

[Someone chuckling]

Rabbi Sacks:

AND THAT'S JUST POTTY,

I MEAN, THAT'S RIDICULOUS,

AND FOR THAT YOU GO TO OXFORD,

BUT THEN, YOU KNOW, IT AMAZES ME.

[Background coughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

SO, I THINK THEY'RE VERY

ANGRY THAT HAVING BEEN DECLARED

BRAINDEAD IN THE 18TH CENTURY,

HERE IS THE CORPSE

STILL WALKING AND TALKING

AND BREATHING AND SMILING,

AND THEY FEEL THEY HAVE TO

LAUGH IT OUT OF EXISTENCE.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND,

THERE IS A DIMENSION

THERE IN THEIR CASE

WHICH IS REAL AND WHICH

I ACKNOWLEDGE IN MY BOOK,

THE GREAT PARTNERSHIP,

WHICH IS WE ARE SEEING

THE RETURN OF SOME VERY,

VERY DANGEROUS FORMS

OF RELIGIOSITY.

YOU KNOW, ON OUR POLITI--

OUR RELIGIONIZATION OF POLITICS,

YOU KNOW, AND IN CERTAIN

RADICAL RELIGIOUS CIRCLES,

AND RELIGION AND POLITICS DO NOT MIX.

UM...WHEN YOU RELIGIONIZE A CONFLICT,

YOU REMEM-- RENDER IT INCAPABLE

OF SOLUTION,

BECAUSE WHAT IN POLITICS IS

A HIGH VIRTUE, IN RELIGION

IS THE GREATEST VICE,

NAMELY COMPROMISE.

The audience watches the panel discussion.

Rabbi Sacks:

SO, IN ORDER TO REACH

A POLITICAL SOLUTION

YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE

TO COMPROMISE,

AND THAT MEANS YOU HAVE TO

MAKE A PRINCIPLED SEPARATION

OF RELIGION FROM POWER,

AND SOME OF THE RELIGION

THAT HAS EMERGED IN THE 21ST

CENTURY IS VERY DANGEROUS,

VERY SCARY, AND ON THIS

I WOULD STAND SIDE BY SIDE

WITH THE NEW ATHEISTS.

IN TERMS OF MY OWN FAITH,

JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY

BOTH WENT THROUGH

BITTER INTERNAL STRUGGLES

BEFORE THEY FINALLY LEARNT

TO RELINQUISH POWER.

IN THE FIRST CENTURY, THE JEWISH

FORCES INSIDE JERUSALEM,

AS JOSEPHUS MAKES

TERRIFYINGLY CLEAR,

WERE MORE BENT ON KILLING

ONE ANOTHER THAN ON FIGHTING

THE ENEMY OUTSIDE.

AND JUDAISM,

WITHIN THE NEXT TWO CENTURIES,

REACHED A STAGE WHERE

A THIRD CENTURY SAGE

COULDN'T EVEN

UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN

KING DAVID,

IN THE BOOK OF PSALMS,

REFERS TO A SWORD

HE MEANS A SWORD.

[Speaking Hebrew]

Rabbi Sacks:

YOU KNOW, GIRD YOUR SWORD

UPON YOUR LOINS.

THAT OBVIOUSLY MEANS,

TO THE THIRD CENTURY SAGE,

MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A LOT OF

LEARNING TO DEFEND YOURSELF WITH

AND SOMEBODY COMES ALONG

AND SAYS...

[Speaking Hebrew]

Rabbi Sacks:

WHEN THE LINE SAYS A SWORD,

IT MEANS A SWORD.

AND HE SAYS, "OH, REALLY?

I NEVER KNEW THAT."

[Speaking indistinctly, Professor Taylor chuckling]

Rabbi Sacks:

I NEVER KNEW THAT BEFORE.

SO, JUDAISM WENT THROUGH THAT

BITTER INTERNAL STRUGGLE.

CHRISTIANITY WENT THROUGH IT

IN THE 16TH AND 17TH CENTURIES,

WHEN EUROPE, THE FACE OF EUROPE,

WAS SCARRED BY RELIGIOUS WARS

IN THE WAKE OF THE REFORMATION,

LEADING TO THE SECULARIZATION

OF POWER IN THE 17TH CENTURY.

SO, THE NEW ATHEISTS, IF THEY

ARE REFERRING TO A DANGEROUS

DEVELOPMENT IN THE WORLD,

THEN I THINK THEY'RE RIGHT

AND I HAVE TO STAND

WITH THEM ON THAT.

Text reads, "Charles Taylor. Professor Emeritus, Political Science and Philosophy. McGill. The future of religion in a secular age. Isabel Bader Theatre, Toronto. November 3, 2011."

Professor Taylor says, NO, I'M TRYING TO--

I'D JUST LIKE TO ADD

TWO LITTLE SIDE COMMENTS.

ONE IS, WHY ARE THEY SO ANGRY?

WELL, I THINK IT'S RATHER

LIKE VICTORIAN BISHOPS

FACED WITH DARWINISM,

AND STRANGELY ENOUGH,

I MEAN, IRONICALLY ENOUGH. WHY?

WELL, YOU SEE,

IN THE 19TH CENTURY

AMONG MANY CHRISTIAN CHURCHES,

THE IDEA THAT CHRISTIANITY IS

IN THE STRONGEST

CIVILIZATION IN THE WORLD

AND INFORMS IT,

IT'S GOING HIGHER AND HIGHER,

IT WILL PRODUCE

MORE AND MORE GOOD,

EVERYBODY WILL BECOME--

THERE'S A TRIUMPHALIST

PICTURE OF HISTORY,

AND THEN ALONG

COMES THIS TORPEDO.

[Professor Taylor chuckling]

Professor Taylor says, AND THE SAME SITUATION HERE.

FOR 50 YEARS AFTER

THE SECOND WORLD WAR,

A LOT OF SECULAR INTELLECTUALS

THOUGHT RELIGION'S DISAPPEARING,

IT'S ALL GETTING BETTER,

IT'S ALL GOING AWAY,

AND SUDDENLY IT COMES BACK,

AND THEY'VE GOT ANGER AT HAVING

YOUR WHOLE EXPECTATION

OF HISTORY SIDELINED.

THE SECOND THING I'D LIKE TO SAY

IS MAYBE WHAT MAKES EVERYBODY

READ THOSE BOOKS ISN'T

THE SAME AS WHAT MAKES

THE AUTHORS WRITE THOSE BOOKS.

THERE IS SUCH A THING AS

A [Speaking indistinctly]

[Background coughing]

Professor Taylor says, I MEAN, PEOPLE LIKE TO SEE

WHAT HAS PREVIOUSLY BEEN SEEN

AS HIGHLY RESPECTABLE FIGURES

AND INSTITUTIONS

TAKEN DOWN A PEG.

THERE'S A VERY GOOD CANADIAN

AUTHOR YOU MIGHT NOT KNOW WELL,

NANCY HUSTON,

BECAUSE SHE WRITES IN FRENCH,

SHE'S GONE TO PAR-- FRANCE,

AND SHE WRITES IN FRENCH.

SHE WROTE THIS BRILLIANT BOOK,

AND I'VE FORGOTTEN

THE TITLE OF IT,

ABOUT POSTMODERN PHILOSOPHY

AND HOW THERE'S A DEEP GLOOM

WITHIN THESE--

MANY OF THESE PHILOSOPHIES,

THERE'S NO TRUTH,

THERE'S NO JUSTICE,

THERE'S NO FUTURE

FOR HUMAN BEINGS.

AND PEOPLE COME

AND SEE PLAYS LIKE THAT,

AND THEY LAP THEM UP,

BUT IN THEIR LIVES THEY AREN'T

OPERATING ON THE PRINCIPLE

THAT THERE'S NO TRUTH,

BUT THERE'S SOMETHING

FASCINATING ABOUT THIS,

TO SEE THIS GOING ON,

THIS KIND OF DRAMA GOING ON.

I THINK THAT WILL ACCOUNT FOR

A LARGE PART OF THE READERSHIP,

BECAUSE THESE BOOKS

SELL VERY WELL.

IT DOESN'T MEAN AT ALL THAT THE--

ALL THE BUYERS AND READERS ARE

ACTUALLY BUYING THE ARGUMENT.

[Professor Taylor chuckling]

Professor Malamet says, THERE'S A FASCINATING

COMMENT I RAN ACROSS,

TO TURN ATHEISM ANOTHER WAY,

BY ONE OF THE CENTRAL

JEWISH THINKERS

OF THE 20TH CENTURY,

IS A MAN NAMED

RABBI ABRAHAM ISAAC KOOK,

AND RABBI KOOK WAS

THE FIRST CHIEF RABBI

OF MANDATE PALESTINE.

HE WAS A FASCINATING FIGURE.

HE WAS A MYSTIC,

HE WAS A REMARKABLE FIGURE.

Text reads, "Elliott Malamet. Professor of Jewish Education. York. The future of religion in a secular age. Isabel Bader Theatre, Toronto. November 3, 2011."

Professor Malamet says, AND HE WROTE AN ESSAY CALLED

THE PANGS OF CLEANSING,

AND IN THE ESSAY

HE WRITES THAT, "GOD'S BEING,

AS CONCEIVED BY THE MULTITUDE,

AND EVEN BY INDIVIDUALS

WHO WOULD BE THEIR LEADERS,

IS THAT OF A RUTHLESS POWER

FROM WHOM THERE'S NO ESCAPE

AND TO WHOM WE MUST

NECESSARILY BE SUBSERVIENT.

THE TENDENCY TO SEE THE DIVINE

ESSENCE AS EMBODIED IN WORDS

AND IN LETTERS ALONE IS A SOURCE

OF EMBARRASSMENT TO HUMANITY,

AND ATHEISM ARISES

AS A PAINED OUTCRY

TO LIBERATE MAN FROM

THIS NARROW AND ALIEN PIT,

TO RAISE HIM FROM

THE DARKNESS OF FOCUSING

ON LETTERS AND WORDS ALONE,

TO PLACE HIS PRIMARY FOCUS

ON THE REALM OF MORALS."

[Background coughing]

Professor Malamet says, SO, IT SEEMS LIKE,

FOR RABBI KOOK, HE SEES ATHEISM

AS A WAY OF KEEPING

RELIGION HONEST,

AND CRITIQUING IT WHEN IT

DESCENDS INTO THIS KIND OF

NUMBING DOGMA AND THIS

COERCIVE FUNDAMENTALISM.

THAT, IN TURN, WOULD SUGGEST

THAT WE WERE BETTER OFF NOT TO

DRAW THESE SHARP DICHOTOMIES

BETWEEN WHAT WE CALL RELIGIOUS

AND WHAT WE CALL SECULAR.

I WONDER IF YOU COULD BOTH

REFLECT ON THE RELATIONSHIP

BETWEEN SO-CALLED

RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES

AND SO-CALLED SECULAR ONES.

Rabbi Sacks:

YEAH. I THINK THEY'RE LOTS OF

DIFFERENT KINDS OF ATHEISTS,

BUT I WOULD IN PARTICULAR

DISTINGUISH TWO.

ONE, I, UM...

ONE, IT WAS NICELY

DEFINED FOR ME

BY THE LATE SIR ISAIAH BERLIN,

WITH WHOM I CAN BECAME

QUITE CLOSE TOWARDS

THE END OF HIS LIFE,

AND THE FIRST TIME HE

CAME TO OUR HOUSE, HE SAID,

"CHIEF RABBI, WHATEVER YOU DO,

DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT RELIGION.

WHEN IT COMES TO GOD,

I'M TONE DEATH."

[Audience laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

AND THEN HE SAID,

"WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS

HOW YOU STUDIED PHILOSOPHY

AT CAMBRIDGE AND OXFORD,

HOW IS IT THAT YOU BELIEVE?"

AND I SAID,

"SIR ISAIAH, IF IT HELPS,

THINK OF ME AS

A LAPSED HERETIC."

[Audience laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

"QUITE UNDERSTAND, BOY.

QUITE UNDERSTAND."

[Professor Taylor laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

SO, THERE IS

THE KIND OF ATHEIST, UM,

WITH WHOM I'VE HAD DIALOGUES.

I HAD A DIALOGUE

TWO WEEKS AGO ON THE B.B.C.,

QUITE A LONG ONE

WITH RICHARD DAWKINS,

AND THAT'S HOW

I UNDERSTAND RICHARD DAWKINS,

HE'S TONE DEAF TO

SOME OF THE REGI--

NOT ALL, HE HAS A SENSE OF

AWE IN THE PRESENCE OF NATURE

AND THE VASTNESS

OF THE UNIVERSE,

BUT IN OTHER RESPECTS

HE'S TONE DEAF.

AND HE SAID, "ABSOLUTELY RIGHT,

I AM TONE DEAF."

YOU KNOW, WHICH WAS AN INTERESTING

ADMISSION ON HIS PART.

SO, THERE ARE

THE TONE DEAF ATHEISTS.

AND THEN THERE ARE THE OTHER

KIND OF ATHEISTS WHO REALLY

HAVE SOUL AND WHO REALLY SEE

THE FAILINGS OF THE EMBODIMENT

OF RELIGION AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT.

AND I MAKE IT MY PRINCIPLE

TO HAVE OPEN DIALOGUE

WITH THOSE ATHEISTS,

AND I HAVE THEM ALL THE TIME

IN BRITAIN AND IN ISRAEL.

I'M THINKING HERE OF REAL

PROPHETIC FIGURES

WHO ARE COMPLETE ATHEISTS,

VERY ANTI-RELIGIOUS,

LIKE THE ISRAELI NOVELISTS

AMOS OZ, DAVID GROSSMAN,

A.B. YEHOSHUA,

WITH ALL OF WHOM

I HAVE A CLOSE FRIENDSHIP.

AND I'M THINKING OF

INTERESTING INTELLECTUALS

WITH WHOM I'VE HAD DIALOGUES

LIKE STEVEN PINKER,

LIKE GEORGE STEINER,

AND WHEN YOU'RE IN

CONVERSATION WITH SUCH PEOPLE

YOU FEEL INCREDIBLY ENLARGED,

BECAUSE YOU KNOW THEY

ARE SEEING THINGS FROM

A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE TO YOU

AND YOU COME AWAY WITH--

WITH A SENSE OF-- OF REAL

HAVING MADE SPACE FOR THE OTHER,

AND THAT'S IMPORTANT,

AND THAT CONVERSATION

IS SO FUNDAMENTAL TO JUDAISM.

I-- I DON'T KNOW OF

ANY OTHER CIVILIZATION

THAN JUDAISM ALL OF

WHOM'S CANONICAL TEXTS

ARE ANTHOLOGIES OF ARGUMENTS.

YOU KNOW, AND IF THEY

AIN'T GOT A DECENT ARGUMENT,

IT AIN'T JEWISH, YOU KNOW?

AND SO, YOU KNOW,

AND THE GREATEST

FIGURES IN THE BIBLE

ARGUE WITH GOD HIMSELF.

ABRAHAM DOES,

MOSES DOES, JEREMIAH DOES,

JOB DOES, JONAH DOES.

I MEAN, THAT'S PART OF

THE DIALECTIC OF FAITH,

AND NO ONE EVER

ELIMINATES THE ARGUMENT,

EVEN IF THE ARGUMENT HAS

BEEN RESOLVED IN FAVOUR OF

[Speaking indistinctly],

WE STILL REPEAT

THE TEACHING OF SHAMMAI.

SO, I THINK THERE'S AN ARGUMENT

WITH ATHEISTS THAT ENLARGES US,

AND I THINK IT WAS THOSE

PROFOUNDLY HUMANIST ATHEISTS

THAT HARAV KOOK WAS TALKING ABOUT.

Professor Taylor says, MM-HM. YEAH.

I MEAN, I ENTIRELY AGREE.

WE NEED ATHEISTS.

WE PEOPLE OF

FAITH NEED ATHEISTS.

LIKE, YOU KNOW, I'M MORE

ANALOGOUS TO THE SHABBOS GOY.

SO, IT'S WHAT THE JEWISH

COMMUNITY NEEDS.

[Audience and Professor Malamet laughing]

Professor Taylor says, YEAH, NO, BUT, REALLY,

AT A MUCH MORE PROFOUND LEVEL.

WE NEED THEM AS

CONVERSATION PARTNERS.

AND THEY DON'T ALWAYS REALIZE

THAT THE REVERSE IS ALSO TRUE,

BUT SOMETIMES THEY DO,

SOMETIMES THEY DO,

AND THEN ONE HAS A REALLY

DEEP CONVERSATION. YEAH.

Professor Malamet says, BOTH OF YOU HAVE TALKED

A LOT ABOUT NOT JUST

THE INDIVIDUAL

EXPERIENCE OF RELIGION,

BUT COMMUNITIES

AND HOW INCREASINGLY

BOTH OF YOU ARE TOUCHING

ON THE VITAL QUESTION OF

THE CREATION OF COMMUNITY,

AND YOU MENTIONED EARLIER TODAY

YOU'RE TALKING

ABOUT ROBERT PUTNAM'S BOOK

‘AMERICAN GRACE,’

BUT HIS EARLIER BOOK,

‘BOWLING ALONE’, WHICH WAS BASED

ON HIS ARTICLE OF THAT NAME,

TALKED ABOUT THIS EROSION OF

CIVIC ENGAGEMENT IN AMERICA,

WHAT HE CALLS

DECLINING SOCIAL CAPITAL.

I'M WONDERING-- I'M REALLY WAS

REALLY DELIGHTED THAT WE HAVE

SO MANY STUDENTS

IN THE AUDIENCE TONIGHT,

I'M WONDERING IF

YOU COULD TALK ABOUT, UM,

ESPECIALLY AMONG YOUNG PEOPLE,

ABOUT COMMUNAL TIES

IN AN AGE WHICH

OFTEN SEEMS SO FRAGMENTED,

SO ATOMIZED, AND ESPECIALLY WHEN

WE THINK OF MULTICULTURALISM,

CREATING WORLDS WITHIN WORLDS

WITHIN WORLDS, WHERE YOU

HAVE COMMUNITIES THAT MAYBE

DON'T INTEGRATE INTO

THE LARGER BODY POLITIC.

HOW DO WE ACTUALLY

BEGIN TO CHANGE THAT

AND CREATE A LARGER CULTURE

WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE CAN FEEL

BOTH A LOYALTY TO THEIR OWNS--

THEIR OWN THING,

AND ALSO A COMMITMENT TO

THE COUNTRIES THEY INHABIT?

IN OTHER WORDS WHAT KIND OF

COMMON GROUND CAN WE CREATE

TO MAKE A COMMUNITY TODAY?

[Background coughing]

Text reads, "Charles Taylor. Professor Emeritus, Political Science and Philosophy. McGill. The future of religion in a secular age. Isabel Bader Theatre, Toronto. November 3, 2011."

Professor Taylor says, WELL, I THINK WE NEED THESE

VERY VIBRANT LOCAL COMMUNITIES,

BUT WE ALSO NEED

THIS KIND OF CONNECTION,

AND I THINK THAT WHEN YOU SEE--

I MEAN, MULTICULTURALISM IS VERY

BADLY MISUNDERSTOOD,

VERY BADLY MISUNDERSTOOD

OUTSIDE OF CANADA,

BUT ALSO I THINK MAYBE

A LITTLE BIT IN CANADA,

BECAUSE PEOPLE IN EUROPE

VERY OFTEN REACT TO IT

AS THOUGH IT WERE AN INVITATION

TO RETREAT INTO YOUR GHETTO, RIGHT?

BUT CANADIAN MULTICULTURALISM

HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN ATTEMPT

TO INTEGRATE, AND INTEGRATE

ON THE UNDERSTANDING THAT

THE COUNTRY BELONGS TO EVERYBODY,

I MEAN, NOT JUST

THE PEOPLE THAT WERE HERE

IN THE MORE DISTANT PAST,

BUT TO EVERYBODY.

SO, IT'S INVOLVED ALWAYS IN

CREATING THIS SENSE OF

A BLINK OF COMMON PURPOSE,

OF COMMON GOAL

THAT LINKS PEOPLE

ACROSS COMMUNITIES,

AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE

THE POLITICAL DIMENSION

BECOMES REALLY

ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL.

IF WE LET THAT

POLITICAL DIMENSION,

THE DIMENSION THAT

WE ARE CITIZENS TOGETHER,

WE WANT TO CREATE A COUNTRY

THAT REALLY IS PROUD TO BE IN,

BUT WE ALSO WOULD WANT TO CREATE

A WORLD THAT'S GOING TO BE

LIVEABLE IN BY OUR CHILDREN

AND GRANDCHILDREN,

WITHOUT THAT POLITICAL

DIMENSION THIS WHOLE SYSTEM

DOES COLLAPSE INTO

A NUMBER OF VERY, IF YOU LIKE,

EGOISTIC, 'CAUSE THAT'S

THE RIGHT WORD,

COMMUNITIES THAT ARE--

THAT ARE INWARDLY TURNED.

AND I THINK THAT IS

WHERE THE PROPHETIC VOICE

OF VARIOUS RELIGIOUS

COMMUNITIES CAN PLAY

A VERY, VERY BIG ROLE.

[Background chair legs scraping on the floor]

Professor Taylor says, I MEAN, DON'T FORGET THIS WORLD,

DON'T FORGET THIS COUNTRY, REACH OUT,

AND I KNOW THAT JONATHAN

HAS DONE TREMENDOUS THINGS

IN THAT REGARD IN

THE ENGLISH CONTEXT,

BUT I THINK WE NEED THAT VERY

MUCH IN THE CANADIAN CONTEXT.

Rabbi Sacks:

IT'S VERY STRIKING THAT IN

THAT 2000 BOOK, ‘BOWLING ALONE’,

ROBERT PUTNAM WAS SAYING

WE'VE LOST SOCIAL CAPITAL,

MORE PEOPLE GOING

BOWLING THAN EVER,

FEWER THAN EVER

JOINING BOWLING TEAMS,

AND THAT WAS A BOOK ABOUT

WHERE IS OUR SOCIAL CAPITAL.

THEN 10 YEARS LATER

OUT COMES ‘AMERICAN GRACE’

SAYING SOCIAL CAPITAL

IS IN FACT ALIVE AND WELL

AND IT EXISTS IN

OUR RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES,

AND IF YOU ARE A MEMBER

OF A RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY,

YOU ARE MORE LIKELY TO

HELP A NEIGHBOUR IN DISTRESS,

LOOK AFTER A PET DOG

IF THEY'RE GOING ON HOLIDAY,

HELP SOMEBODY FIND A JOB,

INVITING SOMEBODY WHO'S LONELY,

OR ALLOW SOMEBODY ELSE TO CUT IN

FRONT OF YOU IN A TRAFFIC JAM.

[Audience and Professor Taylor laughing, background commentary]

Rabbi Sacks:

AND ROBERT PUTNAM

DELAYED THE PUBLICATION

OF ‘AMERICAN GRACE’ BY TWO YEARS

BECAUSE THOSE FINDINGS WERE

SO COUNTERINTUITIVE

THAT HE KIND OF DISTRUSTED

HIS RESULTS AND WENT BACK

AND DID MORE RESEARCH,

AND CAME BACK WITH

EXACTLY THE SAME CONCLUSION.

RELIGION IS THE GREAT CREATOR

OF COMMUNITIES TODAY, UM,

AND IT'S VERY INTERESTING THAT

RELIGION CREATES COMMUNITIES,

SOMETIMES WITH AN INTENSITY

YOU WON'T FIND ANYWHERE ELSE.

A LEADING POLITICIAN IN BRITAIN

ONCE ASKED ME WHAT IS COMMUNITY,

AND HOW I UNDERSTAND THE WORD,

BECAUSE I'VE WRITTEN SEVERAL

BOOKS ON IT, ‘POLITICS OF HOPE,’

‘THE HOME WE BUILD TOGETHER.’

AND SO ON, AND I SAID,

"WELL, LOOK, I CAN BEST EXPLAIN

COMMUNITY BY SAYING THAT

I GIVE A LOT OF TALKS ABOUT

A LOT OF DIFFERENT SUBJECTS

IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT COUNTRIES,

AND WHEN THE THING,

WHEN THE TALK IS OVER

AND WE'RE HAVING COFFEE

AND EVERYONE COMES UP TO ME,

THEY ASK ME QUESTIONS

AND WHEREVER I AM

AND WHATEVER I'VE SPOKEN ABOUT,

IT'S ALWAYS THE SAME QUESTION.

"DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?"

YOU KNOW, MY AUNT USED

TO GO TO SCHOOL WITH

YOUR MOTHER'S SECOND COUSIN…

[Audience and Professor Taylor chuckling]

Rabbi Sacks continues,

OR, MY NIECE USED TO BABYSIT FOR...,

YOU KNOW, I MEAN,

FORGET SIX DEGREES OF SEPARATION

IN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY.

TWO JEWS MEET AS STRANGERS

AND PART AS MISHPOCHA,

AS FAMILY.

[Audience laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

SO, THEY CALL

THAT JEWISH GEOGRAPHY.

SO, AND IT'S AN ABSOLUTELY

EXTRAORDINARY THING

AND IT FUNCTIONS

RIGHT ACROSS THE WORLD.

SO, I SAID, "COMMUNITY IS

WHERE THEY KNOW WHO YOU ARE

AND WHERE THEY MISS YOU

WHEN YOU'RE NOT THERE."

IT WAS VERY INTERESTING

THAT THIS POLITICIAN,

VERY BRIGHT MAN,

DID NOT UNDERSTAND THAT.

IN OTHER WORDS

WE HAVE A KIND OF SENSE

OF CORPORATE BELONGING

AND MUTUAL RESPONSIBILITY

IN RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES THAT

YOU DON'T READILY FIND OUT THERE

AND IT'S VERY INTERESTING

NOW THAT WE'VE OPTED FOR

VIRTUAL COMMUNITIES

THROUGH FACEBOOK AND--

AND SOCIAL NETWORKING SOFTWARE,

AND SHERRY TURKLE OF M.I.T. CALLED

HER BOOK ON THE IMPACT OF THIS,

YOU KNOW, THE TEXTING

PHENOMENON ON YOUNG PEOPLE,

SHE CALLED IT ‘ALONE TOGETHER.’

SO, VIRTUAL COMMUNITY

AND REAL COMMUNITY,

AND I THINK I MUST COMMEND

MOSES ON HIS FORESIGHT

3,300 YEARS AGO WHEN HE SAID,

"ON THE SEVENTH DAY,

THOU SHALT NOT TEXT."

[Audience and Professor Taylor laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

YOU KNOW, WE NEEDED

THE LIBERATION FROM SLAVERY

IN EGYPT, WE NOW NEED

THE LIBERATION OF SLAVERY

FROM SMARTPHONES.

[Background coughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

SO, THAT IS NUMBER ONE,

THE POWER OF COMMUNITY.

OF COURSE WE HAVE TO

BE OPEN TO THE FACT

THAT THE VERY ACT OF

JOINING LOTS OF PEOPLE TOGETHER

TO MAKE A COLLECTIVE

US WHICH UNITES,

AT THE SAME TIME DIVIDES,

BECAUSE FOR EVERY US

THERE'S A THEM,

THE PEOPLE NOT LIKE US.

AND THAT IS WHY

IT'S AN IMPERATIVE, I THINK,

IN ALL DIVERSE SOCIETIES TODAY

THAT WE HAVE ALSO TO REACH OUT

THE HAND OF FRIENDSHIP

ACROSS COMMUNITIES.

Professor Malamet says, PROFESSOR TAYLOR, I WANTED

TO CONCLUDE OUR DISCUSSION

BY BASICALLY TALKING ABOUT

HOW CAN CERTAIN PEOPLE,

UM, TRANSCEND THE KIND OF

THINKING BOX THEY'RE IN?

HOW CAN THEY COME TO IT?

YOU KNOW, YOU TALKED

ABOUT TONE DEAFNESS.

CAN WE TAKE A PERSON WHO

DOESN'T THINK IN THESE TERMS

AND TALK TO THEM IN A WAY

WHERE THEY CAN BEGIN TO

THINK IN THESE TERMS?

Professor Taylor says, WELL, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN

EXACTLY TALK THEM INTO IT,

BECAUSE, AS YOU SAY,

I MEAN, WEBER USES

HIS EXPRESSION, TOO, RIGHT?

RELIGIOÖS UNMUSIKALISCH,

I'M RELIGIOUSLY UNMUSICAL.

THE SAME-- IT'S LIKE THE TONE DEAF.

I MEAN, IT'S VERY INTERESTING.

Text reads, "Charles Taylor. Professor Emeritus, Political Science and Philosophy. McGill. The future of religion in a secular age. Isabel Bader Theatre, Toronto. November 3, 2011."

Professor Taylor says, WEBER USED IT IN

A KIND OF SEMI-IRONIC WAY,

BECAUSE HE WAS

KIND OF BOTH SELF-CRITICAL

AND ALSO ESPOUSING THAT.

OBVIOUSLY, DAWKINS WAS

JUST ESPOUSING THAT.

SO, THAT GIVES YOU

A HINT THAT IF YOU--

SOMEBODY'S REALLY TONE-DEAF

AND YOU WANT TO EXPLAIN

WHY BEETHOVEN IS GREAT,

YOU JUST CAN'T DO IT, RIGHT?

Professor Malamet says, RIGHT.

[Background coughing]

Professor Taylor says, SO, SOMETHING HAS TO TOUCH THEM.

SOME SENSE OF

THE LIMITS OF THIS,

SOME SENSE OF

WHAT CAN GO BEYOND THIS,

AND THAT'S VERY HARD TO PROGRAM.

I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK THAT PEOPLE OF FAITH

REALLY REMARKABLE

PEOPLE OF FAITH,

MANAGED TO TOUCH

PEOPLE BY WHAT THEY ARE

MUCH MORE THAN BY ANY ARGUMENTS

THAT THEY CAN ACTUALLY DEPLOY,

BUT IT SEEMS CLEAR TO ME THAT--

THAT LIVES LIVED SIMPLY WITHIN

THIS VERY CIRCUMSCRIBED BOX

ARE SOMEHOW MISSING SOMETHING,

THEY'RE MISSING EVEN

AN ASPIRATION THAT GOES

BEYOND THAT, THAT BOX,

AND ONCE PEOPLE

GET A HINT OF THIS,

THEN OF COURSE YOU CAN

REDESCRIBE THE SITUATION.

I MEAN, YOU WERE SAYING

ABOUT YOU'RE TRYING TO EXPLAIN

COMMUNITY TO THIS PERSON,

THIS BRITISH POLITICIAN,

AND HE DIDN'T GET

WHAT YOU WERE SAYING.

I MEAN, THAT'S A VERY ARRESTING

SITUATION WHEN YOU THINK.

IT'S VERY CLEAR TO ME,

AND LET ME ARTICULATE IT,

AND YOU DON'T GET IT.

BUT IF THEY DO BEGIN TO GET IT,

OR IF, JUST IF THE FACT

THAT YOU'RE SAYING THAT,

AND THEY'RE-- THEY HAVE

A CERTAIN SENSE THAT THERE'S

SOMETHING DEEP IN YOUR LIFE,

AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT,

AND THEY DON'T GET IT,

"WELL, I'M WORRIED

I DON'T GET IT.

LET ME TRY TO-- LET ME TRY

TO SEE WHAT IT COULD BE."

THAT CAN OPEN SOMETHING

WHICH CAN OPEN A CONVERSATION.

Rabbi Sacks:

THERE WAS ONE INCIDENT THAT

ACTUALLY PROVOKED ME TO WRITE

THE BOOK ‘THE GREAT PARTNERSHIP,’

WHICH I THINK PERHAPS IS

ONE WAY OF TALKING ABOUT IT.

IN 2009, THE BRITISH HUMANIST ASSOCIATION

UM, PAID TO COVER LONDON BUSES

WITH A BIG SLOGAN, WHICH SAID—

[Professor Taylor laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

"GOD PROBABLY DOESN'T EXIST,

SO STOP WORRYING

AND ENJOY LIFE,"

AND I SAID THAT'S A REALLY

INTERESTING SENTENCE,

AND IT CONTAINS

A REALLY INTERESTING WORD,

AND THE INTERESTING

WORD IS "PROBABLY."

[Professor Taylor laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

AND I SAID,

"LET'S NOW GO FIGURE."

READ LORD REES, THE PRESIDENT OF

THE ROYAL SOCIETY,

BRITAIN'S MOST DISTINGUISHED SCIENTIST,

READ HIS BOOK ‘JUST SIX NUMBERS,’ AND YOU WILL SEE THE PROBABILITY

OF THE UNIVERSE EXISTING IS ALMOST ZERO BECAUSE HAD

ANY OF THE SIX FUNDAMENTAL

MATHEMATICAL FORCES THAT DEFINE THE NATURE OF

THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE BEEN DIFFERENT TO A TRILLIONTH OF

A DEGREE, THE UNIVERSE WOULDN'T HAVE COME INTO BEING.

SO, THE UNIVERSE IS IMPROBABLE. UH... THE EMERGENCE OF LIFE

FROM INANIMATE MATTER IS SO EXTRAORDINARY THAT

A CONVINCED ATHEIST LIKE FRANCIS CRICK

WAS CONVINCED THAT IN ORDER

TO EXPLAIN THE EMERGENCE OF LIFE

ON EARTH YOU HAD TO SUPPOSE

THAT IT CAME FROM MARS…

[Chuckling, Professor Taylor laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

THUS CREATING ANOTHER QUESTION,

HOW DID LIFE EMERGE IN MARS.

BUT, AND THEN, OF COURSE,

THAT ONE OF THESE

THREE MILLION LIFEFORMS

THAT WE CURRENTLY

KNOW THAT EXIST

SHOULD ACTUALLY BE CAPABLE OF

ASKING THE QUESTION WHY,

IS THE ULTIMATE IMPOSSIBILITY,

YET, OF COURSE,

ONLY WHEN HUMAN BEINGS

FIRST ASKED THE QUESTION WHY

DID THE UNIVERSE BECOME

CONSCIOUS OF ITSELF.

SO, EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS IS

WILDLY IMPROBABLE ON

FAIRLY SECULAR, SCIENTIFIC,

AND MATHEMATICAL GROUNDS.

THEN ASK WHO IS THE MOST

INFLUENTIAL PERSON

WHO EVER LIVED?

WELL, GIVEN THAT THERE

ARE 2.2 BILLION CHRISTIANS,

1.3 BILLION MUSLIMS, AND A FEW JEWS,

MOST OF WHOM ARE HERE TONIGHT--

[Everyone laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

COUNT ABRAHAM AS

THEIR SPIRITUAL INSPIRATION,

I THINK YOU'VE GOT

TO SAY ABRAHAM.

Text reads, "For schedule of upcoming shows: [email protected]."

Rabbi Sacks:

HOW PROBABLE

WAS IT THAT ABRAHAM,

A MAN WHO COMMANDED NO ARMIES,

RULED NO EMPIRE,

PERFORMED NO MIRACLES,

AND DELIVERED NO PROPHECIES

BECAME THE MOST

INFLUENTIAL PERSON THERE WAS?

AND THEN THINK HOW COME THIS

TINY LITTLE HANDFUL OF PEOPLE,

NOUGHT POINT TWO PERCENT OF

THE POPULATION OF THE WORLD,

WHO MOSES IN DEUTERONOMY SEVEN,

VERSE SEVEN, SAYS, HE SAYS,

"WE ARE THE SMALLEST

OF ALL PEOPLES,"

SHOULD NONETHELESS HAVE

BEEN ATTACKED BY SOME OF

THE GREATEST EMPIRES

THE WORLD HAS EVER KNOWN,

FROM EGYPT TO THE PHARAOHS,

ALL THE WAY THROUGH TO

THE THIRD REICH

AND THE SOVIET UNION.

EVERY ONE OF

THOSE CIVILIZATIONS,

EACH OF WHICH BESTRODE

THE NARROW WORLD LIKE A COLOSSUS

AND SEEMED INVULNERABLE IN ITS DAY,

HAS NOW BEEN CONSIGNED TO HISTORY,

AND THIS TINY LITTLE PEOPLE

IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL,

AND MAINLY IN THE UNIVERSITY

OF TORONTO THIS EVENING

AND STILL SINGING

"THE JEWISH PEOPLE LIVES."

SO, I CONCLUDE THAT

NOTHING INTERESTING IS PROBABLE.

[Everyone laughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

AND THEN I DEFINE FAITH

AS THE DEFINITE OF PROBABILITY

BY THE POWER OF POSSIBILITY.

AND WHEN WE SEE THAT

IT'S THE FAITH OF MOSES

OR AN AMOS OR AN ISAIAH,

AND THE POSSIBILITY

IN THIS WORLD IN WHICH

SO MANY PEOPLE SAY

HOMO HOMINI LUPUS ES,

MAN IS WOLF TO MAN, DIDN'T--

COULDN'T DREAM OF

CONSTRUCTING A SOCIETY

BUILT ON JUSTICE

AND COMPASSION

AND THE SANCTITY OF LIFE

AND THE INVIOLABLE

AND INALIENABLE DIGNITY

OF EVERY HUMAN INDIVIDUAL.

WHEN YOU COULD CONCEIVE

THAT SOMEBODY COULD THINK OF

THIS WORLD AS CREATED BY GOD

IN LOVE AND FORGIVENESS,

AND HE THEN ASKS US

TO LOVE AND FORGIVE.

[Background coughing]

Rabbi Sacks:

THESE ARE POSSIBILITIES,

SIGNALS OF TRANSCENDENCE,

THAT WHEN WE SAY THEIR POWER

TO TRANSFORM THE WORLD

ARE OUR EVIDENCE OF

THE POWER OF FAITH,

AND EVEN IF WE DO NOT HAVE IT,

WHEN WE CATCH A GLIMPSE

OF ITS TRANSFORMATIVE EFFECT,

WE ARE DRAWN TO IT.

AND THAT'S WHAT DREW ME TO IT,

AND I THINK IT WILL

CONTINUE TO DRAW HUMAN BEINGS

AS LONG AS THERE ARE

HUMANS ON GOD'S EARTH.

Professor Malamet says, PROFESSOR TAYLOR,

CHIEF RABBI SACKS,

YOU'VE OPENED UP SOME POSSIBILITIES FOR THIS EVE--

[Background laughter]

Professor Malamet:

FOR US THIS EVENING,

AND WE WANT TO THANK YOU

VERY MUCH FOR SPEAKING TO US.

[Audience applauds]